To think that the world will never turn to being veggy...

[bananasinpjamas]

To think that the world will never turn to being veggy...and meat is actually quite tasty...yumm ....roast chicken....

But buying free range/freedom food meat if you can afford it is the next best thing?

Pia - I could say the same for the 'other' side ...

I'd love to read your arguments. How is not eating meat bad for human health, the environment and other animals? How is it irresponsible?

This'll be a revelation.

I've now read your posts, and am still waiting for a decent argument for eating meat.

An argument that isn't purely selfish doesn't exist.

I do eat meat, but mostly ethical stuff, plus we eat a fair amount of non-meat meals - DD won't eat meat at all.
I thought a veggie diet is a lower impact environmentally, as the amount of grain required to produce meat is higher than the amount that a person eating a non meat diet would eat.
However, it is also true to say that if we all switched to a non meat diet it would have significant impacts on the way our landscape looks - much of the open fields/moors etc are that way due to extensive grazing with livestock.
Plus, the species of animals kept for meat production would decline if there were no reason to keep them. You might not think this is a bad thing though - better not to have been than to have had a miserable life and been killed to be eaten...
However - one anecdote re good reasons to eat meat - a chum of mine has been a veggie for most of her adult life, but has been advised by her doctor to include a small amount of meat in her diet to help correct a heart rhythm problem linked to iron in her diet - the easiest way to enable her body to absorb the extra iron required is via meat. So, whilst it was strange at first, she does now occasionally eat meat and the heart problem is better.

i am veggie and i think to kill beautiful animals for meat is disgusting if an animal kills a human and eats it eg zoo accidents, dogs etc omg then its so bad and the animal is destroyed bloody uunfair meat eaters are no more than murderers

exoticfruits, I think if either or both of my dds decided at about eight that they wanted to eat meat, I would refuse to buy it and cook it, but they could eat it outside the home if they wanted. And when they are old enough to cook, if they want to buy and cook meat, well it's up to them. I was brought up on a pretty shiteola diet including meat (mostly cheap processed) and not that much in the way of fresh fruit and veg, loads of tinned food etc. Imo I was deprived of the kind of lovely food my dds have. So anyone who thinks "poor dcs" because my dds are veggie can fuck off.

I don't understand why people think that children being brought up veggie are deprived. My dds love their grub, eat a really varied diet of fresh home-cooked food (mostly, when not eating chips and ice-cream) and they are very rarely ill and full of energy. They love their food and I make all sorts of tasty nuggety burgery sausagey type things with pulses and veg and rolled in breadcrumbs for them to dip in their ketchup and veggie shepherds pies and lasagnes that are soooo much nicer and tastier with chunky colourful tasty veg and pulses (imo) than yukky gristly or spongy meat. Do you know what's IN sausages people? I used to work in a pork factory and it ain't pretty! And bacon is just like salty hard jelly or like cardboard if you cook it too long imo.

Why do people expect veggies to not drink milk and think of us as frauds or hypocrites if we do, but it's ok for meat eaters to drink milk?

oops!

I've had to learn more veggie cooking since my DD decided not to eat meat, she knows what it is and will not eat it and I respect her decision! She's certainly not missing out on interesting food though.
The production of milk though is not exactly without concerns though is it? To produce milk means keeping cows pregnant on a regular basis and this means calves, female ones will themselves go to milk production but what about males? Very few are required for reproduction as artificial insemination is mostly used as the pedigree of the herd is linked to its productivity and many male calves do end up in the veal industry - so there is a meat related element to milk production.

I know Beamur

The pork factory I worked in for a summer killed 3,500 pigs a day and you could hear them all screaming in terror outside. Horrific stuff.

The moment that actually made me become a veggie was in Morocco seeing 3 chickens at a market alive and tied together by the feet with a piece of string waiting to be bought. Unable to move, all staring up at the people walking by. I know it's an emotional reason, but I just couldn't go on kidding myself I thought it was ok after that.

You can tie yourself up in knots on this one. I hate the idea of animals living a miserable life and a distressing death, but I do still eat meat. I buy free range etc, but have no control over meat in restaurants etc so if I'm concerned, I'll choose a non meat option and also no longer buy food from most take aways. All I can do is make the best choices I can for myself and my family.
Funnily enough a friend of mine, who is veggie, says he would eat meat if he raised an animal and killed it himself, whereas, if I had to kill something to eat it, I'd be a veggie!
But, I also think, if you're going to eat meat, at least show some respect for the beast and eat it all, and don't baulk and only eat selected parts of it!

very few male milk calfs go to the veal industry as it is not cost effective and a male milk calf has little to no value. Most will be culled by the milk farmer within days of their birth and used to fed his dogs or burnt as waste.

That doesn't make milk drinking any easier does it!

What is needed is more people to eat veal then at least the male calfs will have a commercial value to the falmer.
They would then be raised as veal and join the food chain rather than being wasted.

I haven't read the full thread, but have seen the same old selfish, lazy and ignorant views from meat eaters.

I have nothing whatever against vegetarians, I could easily be one. It is the breath taking arrogance of this statement that irritates me and makes me lose all patience! I grew up in the countryside-I was close to the food sources. I buy my food from a farm shop, I know how it lived and I know that it wwas killed locally and humanely. My DCs have always seen lambs in the field as we approach and know that they are going to end up in the cabinet inside. I can't remember a time that I didn't know. Do you really want a world without a single farm animal-except in a museum farm park?

What will happen to the Welsh hillsides? Or if the sheep are just kept for wool until the die of old age what is going to happen to the bodies, are we going to have giant burial sites until we run out of space or huge incinerators polluting the atmosphere? Who will pay to get rid of the bodies? Will there be no more wool as farmers find it uneconomical?

Human beings are trying to get the right to die when they choose and yet the poor cows will have to linger in an old age with ailments that make them miserable.

I would love someone who arrogantly thinks they are right for everyone to explain to me how dogs and cats are to be fed.
Are the best cuts of meat to go into tins? Who can afford to buy prime steak for their dog? If you are to say that animals go into tins when they die of old age-who is going to keep the animal-food and vets bills will mean they sell at a loss. Perhaps we stick to dead horses? Would there be enough dead horses? Could someone enlighten me on this one?

Do you drink milk, eat cheese Pia? If so I doubt whether you have the slightest idea how it is produced, or you would know that your statement was particularly hypocritical. (apologies if you are a vegan).
For those who think that killing an animal for food is cruel and have a lovely Marie Antointette idea of milkmaids-the facts on milk production are here. Have any of you ever heard a cow and a calf calling to each other all through the night? It is pitiful. Have you thought where the male calves go? Sold at one day old for veal production.

If you have good reasons for being a vegetarian that is fine- but there is no reason to convert the world because it suits you. If you are holding a sentimental view of animals at least get the facts and give up dairy products!

I think that DC can be brought up quite happily as vegetarians, I have nothing against it, as long as the parent explains 'that is what I believe and when you are old enough you can choose for yourself' And not brain wash them in the meantime.

Isnt there evidence that eating TOO much meat is not great for us? We are designed to eat it from time to time, not twice a day.

I love it though!

If humans were left in the wilderness they would be forced to eat meat or fish to survive-which ought to tell us something about the natural diet. Anyone like to explain how the Inuit people are supposed to be vegetarian?

Cantspel - I beg to differ with your views on male dairy calves. Whilst a large number of farmers do kill the calves at birth because of their lack of value, a huge number of farmers also go on to raise the calves as dairy beef. They are grown on as store cattle and are then killed for their beef. They end up as the cheaper cuts of meat, the "economy mince", and in pet foods.

Exoticfruits - there is a very small, almost negligable veal industry in the UK, to the point that none of the farmers I know sell their calves for veal. They either grow them on as dairy beef themselves, kill them at birth or sell them to be grown on as store cattle.

Cantspel, I have never ever heard of farmers killing bull calves and feeding to thir dogs.

I'd have no problem with hunting / killing in the wilderness (well, apart from a complete lack of skill / knowledge!). Chances are that even with considerable expertise, a traditional hunter isn't going to be killing enough animals to eat the an amount of meat comparable to the average Western diet. More importantly those "wilderness" animals will have had a decent life before being killed.

Re: the Inuit - they have become biologically adapted to a largely meat based diet (e.g. they have abnormally large livers), but unfortunately they still have a significantly shorter lifespan than other Canadians (who presumably have among other things access to a more balanced diet). The Inuit also have respectful relationship to their quarry. THey value the meat greatly and acknowledge its source and the fact that the animal's life has been sacrificed for their benefit.

Sadly this appreciation is not evident in the average punter waddling through Tesco with packs of Value sausages in their trolley.

Re: the argument that vegetarians are hypocritical for eating dairy - Wassaaxalotlegg's point is spot on (not donating a £5 because they could do more with a tenner).

I realise that there is suffering in the dairy industry, and for that reason I only buy organic dairy products (which have higher standards of welfare). It would be better for me to cut out dairy altogether, but with three small picky-eating DC I would be too concerned about getting enough nutrients into them. Maybe we'll go down the vegan route later on. In the meantime vegetarianism is the best I can do, and is a step in the right direction.

I enjoy eating meat, but we raise our own pigs and only buy free range chicken etc and beef/lamb from the farmer down the road where we know how the animals have lived. We don't eat meat every night.

Of course no matter how nice a life an animal has they inevitably end up being killed in a slaughterhouse. Our local one is small but we still feel sad about sending our pigs there - after all they must know in the last few minutes what is happening.

But the alternative is quite difficult - DH and friend were planning to kill the next pig themselves but its quite a job and we are not sure we have got the right sort of space to do everything needed.

Spawnchorus - Animals producing organic dairy products have no different welfare to your average milk herd. The only difference is that they have to eat organic food, so the fields they graze in have to be organic and farmers are not allowed to use antibiotics for things like mastitis on a routine basis, which can actually turn into its own welfare issue.

By all means use organic dairy products because you don't like the chemicals/pesticides/antibiotics, but please don't confuse it with better welfare in farm animals, because that is often not the case.

Now we are all murderers? This is the true face of vegetarianism isn't it. The hate, the confused thinking, the chanting of slogans without understanding the implications. Usually by relatively affluent people with access to fresh veg and fruit from around the world in summer or winter.

SpawnChorus, you seem to be the only one who responded to exoticfruits' question about the Inuit.

It's all very well to speak of health differences, but tell us do you think they were morally wrong to eat meat? Maybe there could be an open letter from MN to them explaining that they are all murderers.

Someone asked about pets. I'm curious too. For those who want a 'step in the right direction we can make it illegal to feed animals to animals if you like. It's cruel to force poor defenceless animals to eat meat anyway.

onagar are you an Inuit?

Are you posting on mumsnet through gloved hands in the snow defending your right to eat fish?

No, so how the fuck is that relevant that a very tiny amount of people in this world actually have to eat meat due to no other options? Who here is trying to claim that small tribes where the animals are actually hunted and the people are a part of the food chain is a horrible thing?

The vast majority of meat is eaten by greedy westners who do not need meat at every meal and who are responsible for helping to destroy the planet.

Vegetarians and vegans have every right to be fucked of and annoyed when our planet suffers the consequenses of someone else's selfishness.

I don't think that anyone has answered my questions except about the Inuit-who have been written off as unhealthy-I dare say they are but they have to eat meat.
What about wool production? What happens to the dead sheep after a lifetime of producing wool?
What happens to the pet food industry? What will the family cat and dog eat?
Won't you mind a limited number of museum farms around the country and no lambs in the field etc?
What will happen to the Welsh hills, Lakeland fells etc without grazing?

I am quite happy to eat meat-and will continue to do so.
The only part that I am uncomfortable about is dairy production. Regardless of what happens to the bull calf, have any vegetarians actually been kept awake all night by a cow and calf calling to each other? It is real distress. It seems weird to me to get all upset about a quick clean death, but not bother about the long drawn out results of a mother and baby being separated (for ever) after a day. I have to say that it doesn't stop me buying milk, cheese, icecream etc. But although I buy local meat from the farm shop, get eggs from free range hens I can't do much about the milk, organic only means that they are fed organically and don't get antibiotics etc-it still causes distress to the animal.