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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that the world will never turn to being veggy...

219 replies

bananasinpjamas · 22/04/2011 01:06

To think that the world will never turn to being veggy...and meat is actually quite tasty...yumm ....roast chicken....

But buying free range/freedom food meat if you can afford it is the next best thing?

OP posts:
exoticfruits · 23/04/2011 14:14

than yukky gristly or spongy meat. Do you know what's IN sausages people? I used to work in a pork factory and it ain't pretty! And bacon is just like salty hard jelly or like cardboard if you cook it too long imo.

Why on earth would I want to eat meat like that?! I know what is in the sausages in my farm shop and have watched them being made. The bacon isn't like that and I don't cook it too long! Meat eaters do get a choice of where to buy their meat!!

Itsjustafleshwound · 23/04/2011 14:18

My issue with Pia was that she hadn't read the whole OP but was able to label a whole lot of posters as selfish, lazy and ignorant ...

All I am saying is that calling a bunch of people who enjoy meat, selfish and ignorant isn't the best way of converting them to change their ways..

There is selfishness and welfare issues with everything we consume - rather convert people to understand source and issues surrounding food production ....

exoticfruits · 23/04/2011 14:21

I am very sympathetic to the whole idea of vegetarianism (although nothing to do with a sentimental view of animals)-in fact the majority of my meals are meat free, to afford to buy decent meat. However someone like Pia makes me want to eat meat at every meal! If she wants to convert the world she need different tactics!

exoticfruits · 23/04/2011 14:21

Turn out the cats-let them catch their own!!

SpawnChorus · 23/04/2011 14:51

QuietTiger - I have to disagree with you re: the welfare of "organic" dairy producing animals. I buy Soil Association Approved products, and they state:

"The welfare of animals is central to Soil Association organic principles. Our standards mean:

* No factory farming
* Lots of outdoor space and fresh air
* Encouragement of normal animal behaviour 
* No routine use of drugs and vaccines
* No genetically modified (GM) feed or growth hormones
* Minimised stress in transport and slaughter  "

Also:

"Organic farming works to minimise animal stress through good management techniques, providing good housing, adequate bedding and mixed or clean grazing (which helps keep down parasite-related diseases). On organic farms, ?native? breeds often play an important role in ensuring the positive health of animals. They have adapted to include suitability to locality (climate, elevation and soils), hardiness, disease resistance, temperament, and ability to thrive on a high roughage diet."

There are VAST differences between farming practices, and by buying SA approved products I hope to be buying at the more humane end of the industry. Now I'm under no illusion that the cows are frolicking down from the meadows proffering their udders for a joyful milking, but like I said, it's the best I can do, short of becoming vegan.

Bumpsadaisie's solution sounds absolutely great to me. I wouldn't do it as a) I live in a city with no garden Grin and b) I don't really want to eat meat that badly. I'm pretty sure I would find it almost impossible to "pull the trigger" myself, unless I was absolutely starving and in some apocalyptic "wilderness" scenario as mentioned above.

So no, I don't think it is morally wrong for humans to kill animals in an absolute sense. I do think that "our" (i.e. Western society's) perception of / attitude towards meat eating and farming is massively fucked up though. And what makes me most angry is the utter hypocrisy of people who eat cheap meat from cruelly raised animals, but refuse to even think about it. I'm quite certain that if these people were forced to watch the production of their "meat" from birth, through a miserable life, to abbatoir, and to "pull the trigger" themselves, they would not be prepared to do it. Just because they are paying someone else to do the dirty work doesn't exempt them from the consequences of their desire for a steak / chicken nugget / bacon roll.

exoticfruits - I suspect no one answered your questions, becasue they;re a bit bizarre, but here goes:

What about wool production? What happens to the dead sheep after a lifetime of producing wool?
No problem with wool production, as long as the sheep are treated humanely. I don't really understand why the dead sheep are a problem.

What happens to the pet food industry? What will the family cat and dog eat?
Well when I was a kid the neighbouring farmers had cats who caught their own food. The owners just provided water. The cats looked v healthy. No idea about dogs, but Valhalla seems to have found a reasonable solution. Maybe people should spend a few minutes thinking about the impact that their pets might have before committing to buying them.

Won't you mind a limited number of museum farms around the country and no lambs in the field etc?
Well, I'm guessing that if people ate more vegetarian food their would be a greater demand for arable farming. So it's not like farming would cease to exist! And actually it was watching the lambs in the field that finally converted me to being veggie! I don't feel particularly warm and fuzzy watching lambs in the field knowing that they are going to be slaughtered in a few months time.

What will happen to the Welsh hills, Lakeland fells etc without grazing
I guess they'll change. Not all change is bad!

PiaThreeTimes · 23/04/2011 14:52

exoticfruits, yes I'm a vegan and my dog eats V Dog.

colditz · 23/04/2011 15:12

Vegan food for carnivorous pets is animal abuse.

Itsjustafleshwound · 23/04/2011 15:29

SA to re-quote:

  • Lots of outdoor space and fresh air
  • Encouragement of normal animal behaviour

Male Jersey calves are culled at birth - you cannot eat Jersey meat
What is normal animal behaviour - the cows are AI'ed and are kept in a permanent state of lactation??
Where exactly do you think cows can roam when there is snow on the ground and inclement weather?

Please don't fool yourself into believing that organic dairy farming is noty cruel.

onagar · 23/04/2011 15:56

VajazzHands, I'm saying about them because a small group of confused and disturbed individuals are saying that they are evil murderers and it would be nice if they could get some perspective.

My species is meat eating and I have no problem with that. Those who wish to forego meat may do so. I'm not stopping them. however calling us murderers is ridiculous.

SpawnChorus · 23/04/2011 16:05

As I've noted more than once on this thread, I'm fully aware that there is cruelty in dairy farming. I choose to buy organic products as they are likely to have higher standards of animal welfare. For the reasons stated above (three very young picky eaters) I find going vegan too great a compromise, but for the time being vegetarianism is better imo than nothing.

At least I have made an informed choice, with eyes wide open, which is better than buying meat or dairy in willful ignorance.

I'm not sure why this point is being flogged to death on this thread. If you feel so strongly about it, why don't you give up dairy products? Probably because you couldn't really give a shit about what happens so long as you get to eat whatever you want. It's just a handy stick to beat veggies with, and feel like you are in some way morally superior to them because at least you're consistently impervious to animal cruelty Hmm

onagar · 23/04/2011 16:12

SpawnChorus, if someone says mildly "I'd prefer animals not to suffer too much so I will cut out meat" that is okay even if they carry on having milk. I mean they are not harming anyone.

But... and this is the point... if someone says "you are all disgusting animal abusers.... pass me the milk" then they are out of order.

SpawnChorus · 23/04/2011 16:36

So it's rudeness / bad manners that bother you? OK, fair enough. I think most people feel the same!

IME it's the "unapologetic" meat-eaters who often seem to have biggest chip on their shoulder about vegetarianism, and who are the most aggressive with their arguments. Most veggies I know are pretty mild-mannered about it all. I never bring it up in RL unless forced by circumstance, and yet I've been put in a position to "defend" my vegetarianism to belligerent sneering meat-eaters on many occasions.

QuietTiger · 23/04/2011 16:36

Spawnchorus - you diagree all you like, but you're talking crap about organic farms having better welfare than standard farms. I', also well qualified to comment on the welfare of farm animals, because I'm married to a dairy, beef and sheep farmer and live this day in, day out. Standard dairy farms have to meet EXACTLY the same welfare requirements as organic farms, with the exception of antibiotics, because to sell milk to a dairy, you have to be farm assured - i.e you have to meet stringent welfare standards. The standards the soil association dictate, are the same standards for any farm on a farm assurance scheme.

Please don't confuse the organic issue in dairy production with a welfare issue. They are two completely seperate issues. Organic milk is produced in EXACTLY the same way as standard milk. The only differences are that antiobiotics are not used routinely (and as a result the stomatic cell count in milk is higher than normally produced milk) and the feed is organic. Everything else is the same.

Organic free-range chicken, beef and pork, OTOH are very differently reared and that's what we buy for the reasons you say.

dementedma · 23/04/2011 16:38

interesting thread. Those of you who won't put dead flesh into your mouth, what about living flesh? Do you do blowjobs? Grin

exoticfruits · 23/04/2011 16:55

I don't really understand why the dead sheep are a problem

Burial-incinerators? Where would this be sited? Would farmers find it economically viable? Or do you wait for them to drop dead of old age or/and disease before they go into pet food? Who pays the huge vets bill in order to look after sheep of advanced age while waiting for them to die?

I agree with QuietTiger-I know many dairy farmers and their animals are looked after just as well as organic animals, as QuietTiger says, the only difference is the feed and the lack of antibiotics-calves are still removed from their mothers soon after birth. I happily eat meat and wil continue to eat dairy products-I only brought it up because I have a distinct feeling that many of those who won't eat meat haven't the foggiest idea how milk is produced.

Most veggies I know are pretty mild-mannered about it all

I'm quite happy with the mildmannered ones who quietly get on with it. I object to people telling me that it remains in the intestine for a week and how do I feel about putting dead flesh and skin in my mouth? I feel utterly fine about it and it doesn't stay in the intestine for a week. It is also a shame that their DCs get a one sided, emotionally charged view and are not able to say 'hang on-that simply isn't true'. It is like religion-should be explained to DCs as I believe and you can make up your own mind when you are older. One thing for sure is that they will make up their own minds. They may follow you, they may not and why does it matter?

PiaThreeTimes · 23/04/2011 17:07

colditz, dogs are omniverous. Have a proper look at V Dog, and compare it's nutritional content to the vast majority of commercial dog foods.

Even my meat-eating vet feeds his dogs V Dog (and Benevo wet food, which is also vegan).

colditz · 23/04/2011 17:16

If they are omnivorous, why restrict their diet? They would not choose to restrict their own diets.

exoticfruits · 23/04/2011 17:21

I would bet you anything that your dog would go wild if shown real meat Pia. Unfortunately he has no choice.

onagar · 23/04/2011 17:38

SpawnChorus you say Most veggies I know are pretty mild-mannered about it all.

Yes, I'm sure they are. It's what I've come to call Fundamentalist Vegetarians that are the problem. Pick almost any subject (Meat/Veg, BF/FF, Catholic/Muslim, Tory/Labour) and you will find a small minority for whom disagreeing isn't enough. It has to be "Death to the unbeliever!".

exoticfruits · 23/04/2011 18:26

I know lots of delightful vegetarians-they don't tell me what I should eat and they certainly don't tell me I am disgusting-they just don't choose to eat meat themselves!

jojowest · 23/04/2011 18:52

had a gorgeous steak with chips at lunchtime

nom nom nom

PiaThreeTimes · 23/04/2011 19:05

They may not tell you that you're disgusting, exoticfruits, but that doesn't mean that they're not thinking it.

exoticfruits · 23/04/2011 19:42

They can think what they like! I really don't care as long as they don't feel the need to 'educate' me. I think lots of things about people that I wouldn't be rude enough to say. I also still like them!!

SpawnChorus · 23/04/2011 21:38

OK, I really can't be arsed to labour the point for much longer as it's only tangentially relevant to the topic, but I still maintain that organic dairy products are likely to have been produced by more kindly reared cows.

comparison of well-being / welfare of organic vs non organic cows (you have to scroll down to see the comparison tables

MOre general blurb.

exoticfruits · 23/04/2011 22:19

I doubt very much whether the majority of vegetarians are buying organic milk-I think that the majority don't understand how it is produced.
Perhaps, reading this they will change-if they are not already. (it still causes distress to the cow and calf-much more than a quick, sudden death).

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