Bf 'nazis', lies, distortions, and the disinhibiting effect of the internet

[Spudulika]

Was listening to a programme of radio 4 yesterday about how people communicated differently on internet boards - how the lack of face to face contact dis inhibits people and encourages them to say things that are harsher and more confrontational than what they'd say while face to face with someone.

Got me thinking about posts I've seen here from people telling stories of really cruel, bizarre and ignorant things that have been said to them by other women advocating breastfeeding.

Such as people being told that they 'should' breastfeed, even though they've had a double mastectomy, are on chemotherapy or other drug regimes incompatible with breastfeeding, are suffering from serious physical illnesses , have a baby with physical disabilities which make bf impossible etc etc.

Also many, many comments from people saying they've been told plainly that they 'must' exclusively breastfeed, that formula is 'poison' or that formula feeding is 'evil'.

And I started to wonder why, given that I strongly advocate breastfeeding and know many other people in r/l who feel the same, and also spend way too much a fair amount of time on mumsnet discussing the subject, I've never heard (or seen here) anyone making these sorts of stupid, intrusive and cruel comments myself.

The worst I've seen here are a few mealy-mouthed comments about women who don't bf being 'selfish' - but nothing really extreme or downright cruel.

You'd think, wouldn't you, that if people are saying these things in real life that you'd also see these opinions expressed online (given the disinhibiting effect of the internet), but you don't really do you.

And yet according to many posters on this board and elsewhere there are many women out there advocating breastfeeding who are more than just tactless or a bit strident, but are actively stupid and spiteful.

So - what's really going on?

Oh

Fuck

No

These threads terrify me but I couldn't lurk after reading the last few posts. Nice to be able to thank you in person so to speak

I'd just like to say that I also have a fat whacker daughter (a phrase I am going to use a LOT more often), and I bf her for 4 months and then needed a bloody rest! With my first (non fat whacker) daughter, I felt under a lot of pressure from people (midwives, family and health visitors) to bf, and really wanted to but it was bloody bastard difficult. But I did it (miserably) for 3 months. With my 2nd, I was much more confident and just thought 'bugger it, I'm going to do what feels best for both of us and ignore what anyone else says'. As a result, I enjoyed the start to DD2's little life much more than DD1. But have honestly bonded with them both the same. I agree that people are much meaner on t'interwebchat. Sucks.

I have to agree with some of your posts leonie I have fought with many a Dr after he/she has told a woman desperate to bf that she cannot bf because they are too lazy to check if she can or if she can't if there are alternatives. I believe they need more training on this, if only to know where to look for information or who to ask for help. Having said that you cannot automatically assume what is OK in pregnancy is OK with bf so it is better to check. However mother should be secure in the knowledge that most of the time there will be a way to continue breast feeding.

I have spent a lot of time comforting mothers after major foot in mouth incidents with regards to these issues. So just in case people were wondering I do actively support women to bf when I can and they can. I mean telling them they can try/continue if they want to, would never tell someone they had to.

Sadly there are a few conditions for which there is no treatment safe in bf but these I would say ime are in the minority. As long as mothers in this category are not made to feel bad I don't mind.

Thanks Springlamb - for providing a prime example of what I was going on about...the attitude of some of the pro BFs....and it is actually very reassuring for some FF mothers to know how much their babies are getting...but for the pro BF argument, why not blow that out of the water as well. As for telling me to FO....well, doesn't do much to demonstrate the superiority of BFers (higher class, better educated etc)...as some would claim.

Marianne - you've accused me of saying things about you on the other thread as well as on here. Why?

longtall - Such Class (lol) and well done for ranting on about something I didn't actually say.

sausages

When you were talking about the pro-BF posters "who have been here all day posting dismissive and cruel comments" (not a direct quote) I assumed you meant me. Didn't you?

sausages Don't worry about it, earlier in this thread OP said that FFers were "illiterate" and "too stupid" to make formula. I've also had personal attacks from these people - as you say, demonstrative of their superiority indeed!

Yes, there are lots of horrible comments and it's quite risible really that one of the rudest, meanest pro-BFers is actually on this thread protesting her innocence and appears to have a bunch of lackeys backing her up.

I was talking about SOME BF'ers...if you'd read my post properly (which I still absolutely stand by).

The posters I had in mind when I wrote that post are the ones I've mentioned here...and I stand by everything I said.

So a bit mean of you to jump on the bandwagon and accuse me of getting at you personally...which I didn't do.

Oh well...am getting to learn about the characters here....and the ones to watch.

Alpine Your post means more to me that you could imagine! Thank you SO much...you take care and have a good day! I have a job to go to!

sausages

I didn't think you'd named anyone, and as I'd been one of the more frequent and vocal posters on the thread, I assumed you meant me. But if not, jolly good. I didn't mean to be cruel to anyone. There's no need for you to get upset over this.

Maybe I meant you?

Actually your rather nasty post above simply confirms what we've said all along. Now, just suppose for a moment that "Tiktok" is in fact "RIGHT" (as you suggest) - then why would she even need you to be rather nasty to me? Why would you, her, or any other pro-BFer need to be nasty?

I'm really good at maths, I don't hurl personal insults at those less gifted and ask them to "suck it up" - I would suggest they use a calculator. :)

But as I said to someone the other week - please, go ahead with your insults, make them even more personal (to me at least) - because with each and every nasty thing you type - you undermine your cause and stop people listening to you.

LeonieDelt - are you one of the lackeys - you have a very good roughing up technique!

It's not the real world on here though is it? FFers feeling victimised - I don't think in real life that happens as FF is the norm. It is more likely that in the general population (not in BF groups, or with health professionals etc) that BFers might get a rough ride, by being asked to feed in a toilet for instance, etc.

I am sure someone will come up with an incident where as a FF they were insulted or made to feel bad and I am not dismissing these incidents. But in our society in general (i.e outside 'mummy world') BF is seen as unusual to say the least. It is more likely that BFers will be the subject of stupid comments, dirty looks etc as it is not the norm.

Just interesting that the reverse is said to happen on here.

BTW Tiktok has always seemed very balanced in her arguments.

People are always complaining that "people stare at them" when they're feeding the baby - be this BF or FF - I think paranoia plays a lot in to this with people questioning their decisions. I'm 99% certain that the majority of the 'starers' are just thinking "awwwww, what a cute baby getting its milk".

Tiktok called me a liar for me telling what happened when I contacted LLL. [shrug]

OP what is it exactly that you are asking?

sausages - I did not disagree that ff mothers find it helpful to see how much their babies are getting, and I know this to be the case. FF can be reassuring in this way. But it's not a pure 'advantage' of formula feeding per se - I pointed out that for (a healthy, term) baby, it's actually not an advantage....this is not to be mean or cruel, or offensive, or insulting, or whatever other things you and others have said I am.

I agree with formula feeding mothers who say they need information and that they often feel underinformed - being 'informed' can mean hearing something new and (I suppose) a bit challenging, can't it?

You have said you don't like my tone - maybe I do come across as condescending but I am ok about that. You can't keep everyone happy. Sometimes robust debate on a talkboard invites 'tones' we would probably not use in real life.

For example, I imagine you don't go into work announcing to people that you 'are getting to learn the characters here' and (dot dot dot) the 'ones to watch' :) 'Cos you would sound deranged and paranoid. On a talkboard, it's all part of the cut and thrust.

Tiktok may be a bit of a guru to some - but she sure has a few intimidation tactics up her sleeve. The most recent one - calling someone a troll.