Bf 'nazis', lies, distortions, and the disinhibiting effect of the internet

[Spudulika]

Was listening to a programme of radio 4 yesterday about how people communicated differently on internet boards - how the lack of face to face contact dis inhibits people and encourages them to say things that are harsher and more confrontational than what they'd say while face to face with someone.

Got me thinking about posts I've seen here from people telling stories of really cruel, bizarre and ignorant things that have been said to them by other women advocating breastfeeding.

Such as people being told that they 'should' breastfeed, even though they've had a double mastectomy, are on chemotherapy or other drug regimes incompatible with breastfeeding, are suffering from serious physical illnesses , have a baby with physical disabilities which make bf impossible etc etc.

Also many, many comments from people saying they've been told plainly that they 'must' exclusively breastfeed, that formula is 'poison' or that formula feeding is 'evil'.

And I started to wonder why, given that I strongly advocate breastfeeding and know many other people in r/l who feel the same, and also spend way too much a fair amount of time on mumsnet discussing the subject, I've never heard (or seen here) anyone making these sorts of stupid, intrusive and cruel comments myself.

The worst I've seen here are a few mealy-mouthed comments about women who don't bf being 'selfish' - but nothing really extreme or downright cruel.

You'd think, wouldn't you, that if people are saying these things in real life that you'd also see these opinions expressed online (given the disinhibiting effect of the internet), but you don't really do you.

And yet according to many posters on this board and elsewhere there are many women out there advocating breastfeeding who are more than just tactless or a bit strident, but are actively stupid and spiteful.

So - what's really going on?

Isnt the point of the OP that people say and do things online that they would never do in RL.

So that could mean embellishing a story about a cruel midwive threatening a new mother with ss for not bf.

Or someone saying something fucking awful about a woman who ff, online.

Personally I have bf and ff and have yet to have anything negative said to me about FF. I have not been told off for bf in public either - not once and I have BF four kids.

I have had childish comments made about my bf by grown women though and heard a hell of a lot of sterotypical bollocks chatted about bf women. People feel free to talk like this infront of me because I am obviously not the 'type' to bf

I am sick of hearing about bf nazis. I am sick of hearing how bf mothers think they are superior. Its a load of toss.

Feed your babies and stfu.

Well of course BF is the natural way to feed a baby, and we now know of the many advantages. But if someone ends up FF for whatever reason does not mean they should be criticised! There are many reasons why someone may FF and judging them harshly helps no-one.

On the other hand, I do agree there needs to be better support for BF, especially after some of the sad stories on here.

If giving up BF means I have to get into "nice" undies again I may well be feeding DS until he leaves for University. I like my comfy bras and big pants

Pigeon. Well, when I say "nice" I mean not with fifty breast pads stuffed down them. I was a dreadful squirter!

TSC I swear you look for any opportunity to bring that thread up. The woman who posted that picture has apologised countless times but you just love to stir it up a bit by going to the extremes. Any chance of having a reasoned discussion with you at all?

It is also true that very few woman are actually physically unable to bf - do you want people to lie about it? The majority of problems that cause people to stop bfing are actually fixable with proper support. Again, what is wrong with saying this? Otherwise you get a woman who thinks that because she has cracked nipples, the baby won't latch, mastitis, an abscess, has to take antibiotics or whatever thinks that she has to give up because the woman on MN had the same problem and no one said anything about it so oh it must be true.

OP- some things that you think are "mealy mouthed" etc, other posters may think are extreme or cruel. It doesn't bother me personally but calling a new mum selfish for how she feeds her child is cruel and spiteful. There was a poster on a a bf topic a while ago who said babies with a bottle in their mouth looked ugly, you mighn't think its a particular cruel thing to say but to a new mum who's already thinking "Oh Christ what do I do next" , "how will I cope" etc it is.

If you are looking for actual examples of phrases used on MN try the search facility.

"but that doesnt mean I agree with the BF Nazi attitude"

Any actual examples of someone being a 'BF Nazi'? By which I assume you mean someone trying to actively force a mother to breastfeed against her will, or being openly cruel and fascistic about a mother's feeding choices?

You obviously believe these people exist otherwise you wouldn't be talking about them.

"Funnily enough you seem to have written such stuff yourself,thinking back to the "bliss" conversation we had yesterday"

Yes - I remember that I said that I felt that breastfeeding was a more pleasurable experience for babies. Because it's more likely to be baby led, because it generally involves more skin to skin contact, and because babies are drinking fresh milk. I think that's fair enough. I've also noted that when babies are really unwell or very distressed they often want to breastfeed and assume that this is because of the comfort they get from doing it. I'm not aware that ff babies are more likely to drink from a bottle if really unwell.

I think it's fair enough to speculate on how ff and bf feel for the baby. We talk about how these things feel for US don't we? All the time.

"Which you didn't like when I turned the tables on you and used exactly the same wording as you had used."

No - the sentiment you expressed which I took offence at was the comment that perhaps people who return to work early in their child's life (as I had to do with dc1) 'shouldn't have children'.

***

I would love someone to study the strange phenomena of breastfeeding in the UK - why as a nation we seem to have unique problems with it. Anyone looking at the stats and reading the posts about bf problems on these boards would arrive at the conclusion that the majority of women who try it end up being driven to the edge of reason/marital breakdown/severe PND etc by serious and intractible breastfeeding difficulties.

It's quite extraordinary - and historically and medically unprecedented. If this is really happening we should have a government enquiry to find out what on earth is going on.

LOL at Changing. Yes, it's so judgemental to feel bad for women who wanted to bf and weren't able to. What a horrible person I am. You're just looking for a fight and you won't get one from me

Bubbley - the fact is that many women do just pass off their lack of success as breastfeeding as a medical condition - I have had friends do that to my face - I know its a half assed lie, they know its a half assed lie - they lie because they feel pressured into BF by the media, health professionals, other mothers, god knows what else.

Its silly to make up something - why not just say "I didnt want to, I dont like it" or whatever. I wouldnt think less of them - its hard having a new baby anyway without beating yourself up!

Bubbley - you dont come across as feeling bad, just horribly patronising.

The thing is, I was able to BF pretty well after a rocky start. What made me give up was the feeling of being imprisoned by my son's needs.

So yes, you could call that convenience, selfishness, whatever.

I never want to see another breast pad or feeding bra in my life. That part of my life is over, thank the lord.

I just really didn't like BF. I wasn't unable, I wasn't led by FF companies, I just really didn't like it.

Somebody mentioned yesterday that if BF is so hard then how come women in developing countries can all do it. I may be wrong but the way I see it, those women didn't have jobs, money, a social life etc outside the home before they became mothers. Here in the privileged west most of us will have enjoyed working, earning, spending, learning and generally doing as we pleased for a period before we started a family.

So when the baby arrives, for some of us it's a huge headf*ck. It was for me - my life was simply unrecognisable with a baby.

But in a poorer country perhaps my life would have been much the same before and after motherhood. So I would not have had to struggle with the reality of my hugely changed role.

Women in developing countries aren't more committed to their babies than we are - if they too had economic independence, interesting jobs outside the home and a genuine choice, I should think many of them would choose FF too.

Spudulika - arent you clever, knowing EXACTLY how a newborn baby feels

This obsession with how strangers feed their babies is quite strange and imho some people on MN need help with this obsession because it's creepy.

Not about breastfeeding here, but looking at the wider picture - Mumsnet has shown me what people can be really like.

People don't say things to your face half as harsh as things you read on here.

Why? Because there are consequences in real life that simply don't exist on here - or any internet chatroom really.

So some people say things on line that they wouldn't say in rl because they know that it would affect their life. Maybe people wouldn't like them, perhaps they'd end up being shouted at, and so on and so forth.

However. The fact that they say whatever (wide range of stuff) on here, means that it's what they really think, they just don't have the courage of their convictions in real life. It's easy to be a bitch behind a computer screen. Not so easy when you are face to face. Self protection kicks in.

I think that is interesting. It has shown me that you can't trust people and you can't believe them and they possibly just daren't say what they really think but you never know what is going on in their heads.

I think that is a good thing. Far better that than believe the smiles and soothing words and think that everyone you meet is a nice person. To know that behind the nice friendly smile is a big dollop of spite keeps you on your toes.

-disclaimer - mn has also shown me that the majority of people are just really nice and kind I am just talking about those who are really really rude. In rl, they will be the ones smiling and saying a cheery hi and saying what a nice dress you have on.

while feeling really "sorry" for your child behind your back...

Your hair looks pretty today, Hecate

y'bugger

spudulika, I can't speak for anybody else but I had bad PND, and BF played a large role in that.

I'll be on meds for years.

It is the truth. I also know lots of women who love BF and find it a very positive experience. We are all different aren't we.

"It doesn't bother me personally but calling a new mum selfish for how she feeds her child is cruel and spiteful."

'You're selfish not to try and bf your baby' directed at a specific poster - agree that this is unkind.

Haven't seen it said.

But a general comment along the lines of : 'I think it's a bit selfish not to even try to breastfeed' .... Is this unacceptable and 'cruel'?

"There was a poster on a a bf topic a while ago who said babies with a bottle in their mouth looked ugly, you mighn't think its a particular cruel thing to say but to a new mum who's already thinking "Oh Christ what do I do next" , "how will I cope"

Stupid comment. And totally outweighed by the dozens of crude comments about women's breasts looking ugly when they uncover them to feed their baby in public. Which actually is FAR nastier because women themselves are often incredibly self-conscious about exposing their bodies while breastfeeding.

"And btw, I was given a BF magazine by my HV, which advised me against FF no matter what, even if my baby was getting no BM at all."

Ah - so your HV advised you that it was better to starve your baby to death than give formula?

That's BF Nazi's for you - rather a baby die than have formula and not afraid to say so! [laughing into my sleeve]

I've had comments about bfing in public. I just accept that it says more about the person making comments.

I'm also very proud that I'm still feeding my 11 month old and won't hide that fact.

What i do find sad pp that many of my friends who ff feel the need to justify their choice. One in particular insists on pointing out that she bf for 2 weeks you know.

At the end of the day as long as the baby is well cared for who cares.

Towards you? Maybe. You aren't a sad mum who is struggling with not being able to bf are you?

I agree that many women do that in rl - as a coping mechanism maybe. The problem is that they are speading misinformation and undermining bf by doing so. A woman who says she had to give up because she didn't have enough milk because the baby was feeding all the time (typical newborn behaviour) or because she couldn't get any out with a pump (even though pumps aren't as good as extracting milk as a baby) to a mum and then that mum experiences the same problem and thinks that she doesn't have enough milk either. That is why people give information on the internet. You are less likely to do it in RL at the risk of offending but you don't want a new mum to read the thread and be misinformed.

no Morris, how very dare you, we are all exactly the same, some of us are just better mothers

You should also consider that this mum may try to bf again and she may be reassured that actually there was nothing wrong and will then be better prepared for next time.

Oh sorry maybe I should be feeling more guilty about reaching for the Cow and Gate....

Does that mean you are allowed to be patronising towards me? No.