Bf 'nazis', lies, distortions, and the disinhibiting effect of the internet

[Spudulika]

Was listening to a programme of radio 4 yesterday about how people communicated differently on internet boards - how the lack of face to face contact dis inhibits people and encourages them to say things that are harsher and more confrontational than what they'd say while face to face with someone.

Got me thinking about posts I've seen here from people telling stories of really cruel, bizarre and ignorant things that have been said to them by other women advocating breastfeeding.

Such as people being told that they 'should' breastfeed, even though they've had a double mastectomy, are on chemotherapy or other drug regimes incompatible with breastfeeding, are suffering from serious physical illnesses , have a baby with physical disabilities which make bf impossible etc etc.

Also many, many comments from people saying they've been told plainly that they 'must' exclusively breastfeed, that formula is 'poison' or that formula feeding is 'evil'.

And I started to wonder why, given that I strongly advocate breastfeeding and know many other people in r/l who feel the same, and also spend way too much a fair amount of time on mumsnet discussing the subject, I've never heard (or seen here) anyone making these sorts of stupid, intrusive and cruel comments myself.

The worst I've seen here are a few mealy-mouthed comments about women who don't bf being 'selfish' - but nothing really extreme or downright cruel.

You'd think, wouldn't you, that if people are saying these things in real life that you'd also see these opinions expressed online (given the disinhibiting effect of the internet), but you don't really do you.

And yet according to many posters on this board and elsewhere there are many women out there advocating breastfeeding who are more than just tactless or a bit strident, but are actively stupid and spiteful.

So - what's really going on?

And yet again, someone else who needs a big arrow pointing to the Breast and Bottle Feeding topic

Oh wow, you admitted YWBU. Well done

spud - I would like to think these woman dont exist but for example we live in a world where some parents can let their children die by not having a blood transfusion due to their personal beliefs, (and I have no intention of getting into the rights or wrongs of this btw) well then you do have to wonder?

" Do you believe there are actual 'nazis' out there that would rather see a baby very sick or dead than ff?"

No. But I believe that there are some real zealots who are so sure that everyone can do it if they just try hard enough that they are prepared to disregard what a mum is telling them and push that mum to press on even when this might be unfair on the baby, convinced that all protests are just laziness, or poor information or unwillingness to listen and learn.

For some people the act of BFing has taken on such massive importance that they forget there is a real life mum and baby combo at the heart of it.

"You do realise it's like giving her poison at that age don't you?"
Really? "

OP, please come right out and confirm, for the avoidance of doubt, whether you think the poster who gave that example, and others who have given similar examples, are lying.

Several examples of comments on MN have been given and are being met with a "yes well.." type response. What are you actually trying to say about these real-life examples. Do you think people are lying or not?

Spudulika - your little emoti-thing says a lot.

Yes, that was said to me. Yes I was very upset and yes I know these people are rare. In real life people are shocked and sympathetic when I tell them about this. I have mentioned it on MN before and usually get a 'raised eyebrow' doubting response from someone. On the scale of BF vs FF battles your reaction is minor but still your sceptical attitude is part of the problem. (The woman was known for being provocative as it turned out - maybe she had other issues but at the time I didn't much care.)

spud -
*"I abhor the thought of any woman being told she should feel guilty because she chooses to ff"

I think you'll find that 99.999% of people agree with you.

So that's one less thing to worry about*

But thats the thing, for me its not one less thing to worry about because it keeps on happening and Im working with people to help support them and try to free them fronm their unnecessary guilt before something tragic happens. So I do worry. And will keep on worrying why some women feel guilty about this. Now someone like me (who doesnt feel guilty) may get angry about being told I "should" feel guilty by someone else (albeit a random stranger on the internet) but ultimately be able to shrug it off. Someone more vulnerable may not be able to do this.

Roger - no I'm just springlambkin

Newgolddream - yes, see what you mean now

kungfu - I have been told by a "very well known bf advocate on mn" that I was lying about my experience with LLL.

springlamb

Kungfupanda - exactly. Why would I lie about it? I don't like thinking there are people who are unkind and enjoy expressing it. I imagine what they are is unhappy. But this is small fry. Some woman being a bitch to one who is vulnerable isn't impossible to imagine surely? Ever heard of bullying? Ever heard of torture? Concentration camps? Awful things happen - we don;t deny them. Why be so sceptical when a woman comes across a horrible person? This issue really twists people's thinking it seems.

"But I believe that there are some real zealots who are so sure that everyone can do it if they just try hard enough that they are prepared to disregard what a mum is telling them and push that mum to press on even when this might be unfair on the baby, convinced that all protests are just laziness, or poor information or unwillingness to listen and learn."

Could you say something about the context in which these things are happening? Are you talking about situations in r/l? Or thinking about the wider debates on this subject which you find on mn?

I do think it's hard when there's a wider debate going on on an internet board - where women chip in with their experiences, not to acknowledge that there is something really devastating going on at a social and institutional level which is resulting in stupidly high rates of bf fall out. When this is acknowledged I can see how individual mums who've stopped bf for very real and pressing reasons feel challenged, but it's really NOT a personal criticism of their decision and it DOES need to be said. You really can't have a meaningful discussion about this topic without acknowledging the CONTEXT in which these things are happening.

"Ever heard of bullying? Ever heard of torture? Concentration camps? "

But that these things are ONLY happening in relation to breastfeeding?

I don't hear people using the 'Nazi' analogy in relation to any of the other areas of parenting?

"and try to free them fronm their unnecessary guilt"

Is it ONLY other women who make mums who don't breastfeed feel guilty?

If we stopped people discussing this subject altogether, would women who don't breastfeed no longer feel guilty about it?

I have to admit I met a woman who did say " perhaps if they don't BF and have that massive advantage in life it might be better to let them go". Honestly. TBH I just assumed she was a little poorly upstairs and she was a lone basketcase.

I FF, not from choice and was devistated. I was further devistated that comments were made by strangers about me FF. I spent weeks trying, I know I gave it a good go but constant reminders of the inferior food DD was raised on for almost months is hurtful. I am intelligent. I know breast is natural and the preference for babies. I do not need it ramming down my throat!!! I had superb support from MW and HVs.

That said I say nothing (but secretly am judgy pants) when BF babies now get ready meals and crap for meals whilst I give DD all fresh (purely from guilt, I would die if I had to use processed food in addition to FF). That said DD was given BE Fish Fingers at GPs and gobbled them down and asked for more

Is my DD grand at 2yrs - yes. Bright, happy, delightful. Is it just my issue/guilt trip - yes.

Re danger from FF and food poisoning - this is entirely (in the UK) down to technique and not following instructions, not the formula itself. In the developing world another matter altogether.

I agree BF rates are low - this will only be overcome when it is truthfully written that BF can, in many many cases, take time to work, can be painful for a while (without a wrong position or tongue tie) and exhausting feeding on demand. The "blissful" picture means many people who struggle think they are doing it all wrong and pack it in. Breast feeding can be bloody hard but worth it would be more honest!!

"But I believe that there are some real zealots who are so sure that everyone can do it if they just try hard enough that they are prepared to disregard what a mum is telling them and push that mum to press on even when this might be unfair on the baby, convinced that all protests are just laziness, or poor information or unwillingness to listen and learn."

Could you say something about the context in which these things are happening? Are you talking about situations in r/l? Or thinking about the wider debates on this subject which you find on mn?"

Both. I came across one HCP who was determined that all our difficulties could be overcome and actively opposed the advice of her colleagues that formula should be given. I have also seen discussions on forums where someone is upset about difficulties and is then subjected to a barrage of "it will be fine - just keep going" type comments, even where a HCP has given different advice.

But I am confused - this thread was specifically started on the subject of cruel comments and your confusion about never having seen them. So it is peoples' own experiences that are relevant surely, not "that there is something really devastating going on at a social and institutional level which is resulting in stupidly high rates of bf fall out." Otherwise this would be just another pro-BF thread which is not how it was presented at all in your OP.

And for the third time, OP, can you please confirm your views on the specific incidents people have cited. Are they lying or not?

Is it ONLY other women who make mums who don't breastfeed feel guilty?

Quite simply I dont know but ime yes it has been in rl. Here - well we dont know the sex of everyone do we here.

"better to let them go?"

Was she saying what I think she was?

"OP, please come right out and confirm, for the avoidance of doubt, whether you think the poster who gave that example, and others who have given similar examples, are lying"

I think people hear and see all sorts of things that haven't been said and aren't there when they're feeling vulnerable and anxious.

So yes - I find it very hard to believe that someone told a mum who was ff that she was giving her baby 'poison'. Also that a mum was told by a hv that she had to breastfeed even if she had no milk. Or that someone who'd had a double mastectomy was told that she could breastfeed.

Spudulika - don't you? I've heard it used - a certain contented little guru and discussion of her methods for eg. But it is because the issue of feeding is fundamental and so emotional. Other things are less so.

katie That's really tickled me. As I was FF I will be taking to my bed and "letting go" (after EE on Friday obv.).

Here's a nice one:

RockinSockBunnies Sun 26-Apr-09 15:42:20
Well, I suppose I'm a mother who could potentially be described as a 'breastfeeding Nazi' , though I'd prefer to think of myself as someone passionate about breastfeeding and its benefits.

I am a judgemental person in some areas and this is one of them. If I see a baby being bottle-fed, I do feel sorry for that child and wonder whether the mother tried to breastfeed. Perhaps I also glance in a disapproving fashion.

Also, you say that what was said to me is "very hard to believe" so that's almost an accusation of lying although you're not quite brave enough to say that. Hardly surprising that this gets emotional when people with your attitude are around. There are those who deny the holocaust (you're not related to Mel Gibson are you?) so I suppose it's all relative.

"OP, please come right out and confirm, for the avoidance of doubt, whether you think the poster who gave that example, and others who have given similar examples, are lying"

I think people hear and see all sorts of things that haven't been said and aren't there when they're feeling vulnerable and anxious.

So yes - I find it very hard to believe that someone told a mum who was ff that she was giving her baby 'poison'.

Thank you for confirming that, OP. I think we just found the answer to your "what is going on?" question. If you aren't prepared to accept peoples' accounts of specific incidents as being truthful accounts then that is why you don't think these cruel comments are happening.

Thread solved. Thanks for your help everyone.