Bf 'nazis', lies, distortions, and the disinhibiting effect of the internet

[Spudulika]

Was listening to a programme of radio 4 yesterday about how people communicated differently on internet boards - how the lack of face to face contact dis inhibits people and encourages them to say things that are harsher and more confrontational than what they'd say while face to face with someone.

Got me thinking about posts I've seen here from people telling stories of really cruel, bizarre and ignorant things that have been said to them by other women advocating breastfeeding.

Such as people being told that they 'should' breastfeed, even though they've had a double mastectomy, are on chemotherapy or other drug regimes incompatible with breastfeeding, are suffering from serious physical illnesses , have a baby with physical disabilities which make bf impossible etc etc.

Also many, many comments from people saying they've been told plainly that they 'must' exclusively breastfeed, that formula is 'poison' or that formula feeding is 'evil'.

And I started to wonder why, given that I strongly advocate breastfeeding and know many other people in r/l who feel the same, and also spend way too much a fair amount of time on mumsnet discussing the subject, I've never heard (or seen here) anyone making these sorts of stupid, intrusive and cruel comments myself.

The worst I've seen here are a few mealy-mouthed comments about women who don't bf being 'selfish' - but nothing really extreme or downright cruel.

You'd think, wouldn't you, that if people are saying these things in real life that you'd also see these opinions expressed online (given the disinhibiting effect of the internet), but you don't really do you.

And yet according to many posters on this board and elsewhere there are many women out there advocating breastfeeding who are more than just tactless or a bit strident, but are actively stupid and spiteful.

So - what's really going on?

to think that, mothers that do not even try to breastfeed, are selfish and perhaps lazy?(285 Posts)
Add message | Report | Message poster mrsdannydyer Thu 13-Mar-08 10:16:23
yes i know their will be women that have been sexually abused or have hiv or something, yes there is always, the execption to the rule.
but in gerneral, why do some women not even try?
this really baffles me

"Both. I came across one HCP who was determined that all our difficulties could be overcome and actively opposed the advice of her colleagues that formula should be given."

But she may have been right. Who knows! You'll come across a range of opinions in relation to all health issues and when it comes to bf this is very much the case. We know there are vastly too many mums being advised to supplement (because of concerns about insufficient milk) in the UK and that the majority of women who stop bf could have continued if they'd been given the appropriate help.

"I have also seen discussions on forums where someone is upset about difficulties and is then subjected to a barrage of "it will be fine - just keep going" type comments, even where a HCP has given different advice."

But that's based on people's experience that 'keeping going' and 'getting advice if the advice you've got isn't working or your not happy with it' is generally the right thing to do!

And HCP's aren't always consistent in the advice they give. There are lots and lots of midwives and HV's giving out-dated, non-evidence based advice to women. Thank goodness for internet boards where women can get a range of opinions from other women who're experienced in breastfeeding - it can and does make a HUGE difference to many. And if a mum has said 'I want to carry on breastfeeding' then what do expect other mums to say other than to give as much encouragement and advice as they can to enable her to do this? What do you think they ought to be doing or saying?

Anyway - must abandon this thread now as need to get ready for work.

"If you aren't prepared to accept peoples' accounts of specific incidents as being truthful accounts "

Eek - nearly done!

No - and the reason I gave for this is that it doesn't seem a) logical or b) reflected in what I see around me, despite the fact I live in an area with a bf rate of over 85% and where there are many mums who are strong advocates of breastfeeding.

Definitely related to Mel Gibson.

AlpinePony . You and me both!!!

I am not going to repeat my story on this thread but I am not lying, As some of the comments to me were made during a court hearing they are now a matter of public record. As I already feel shit enough I am not going to go and retrieve them as proof. Having to justify that I am being truthful is just as hurtful as the original nasty comments, in some ways more so.

I have also witness bf mum's being insulted for bf in public and stood up for them.

"Both. I came across one HCP who was determined that all our difficulties could be overcome and actively opposed the advice of her colleagues that formula should be given."

But she may have been right. Who knows! You'll come across a range of opinions in relation to all health issues and when it comes to bf this is very much the case. We know there are vastly too many mums being advised to supplement (because of concerns about insufficient milk) in the UK and that the majority of women who stop bf could have continued if they'd been given the appropriate help.

Oh good lord. No. She wasn't right. She wasn't right because at the middle of a large group of HVs, MWs and a specialist BF consultant (yes, I was extraordinarily well-supported and lucky) was a baby who was losing weight rapidly, refusing to feed due to the very obvious frustration of not getting what he wanted and becoming more and more distressed.

This is exactly the problem. People spend time explaining their personal situations. Theirs. Not yours. Only to have them picked and pawed over and doubted.

Please try to develop the courtesy of listening to what others are saying and accepting that people are giving open and honest accounts of their experiences. I find it utterly bizarre that you are this determined that you are right to the extent that you are accusing others of lying about their experiences.

I could not be more in favour of active work to improve breastfeeding rates in the UK, through support and education. But I am completely bemused as to how you think threads like this, and an approach like yours, is the way to do this.

One helpful thing has come out of this thread though - that is your admission that you don't believe what people are telling you. That allows other posters to draw their own conclusions as to whether there is any point engaging with you on the subject in the future.

Very well said kungfu Love the name btw.

I BF two of my children and FF two.

One of the FF children was seriously ill when born, and the advice all those millions of years ago was he needed food and I was also ill and they gave him formula.

The other FF child had many many problems around food intolerances/dietary issues - I tried to BF her, but was unsuccessful and it VERY DEFINITELY WAS NOT MY FAULT AS TOLD TO ME BY THE SPECIALIST as my milk had complex proteins she was unable to digest.

The other two were BF - one til 18 months, one til almost 2.

The order went FF, BF, FF, BF

I have had comments when FF - although interestingly only with no3 not with no1 - along the lines of what a shame I wasn't BF her. And an incredibly judgy comment from a MW at the baby clinic, which thankfully the other midwife heard, knew me, knew my situation, and spoke up - I was too shocked to say anything.

I have also had comments when BF - including my (now deceased and ex) FIL feeling my breasts and comparing me to a type of cow and commenting on the veins in my "tits".

Particularly with no2 child, it wasn't the done thing to BF (again millions of years ago) and none of my friends or family had BF. MIL actually tried to tell me that formula was superior to my milk. Because the doctors and scientists made it.

Didn't stop me BF though. And I have BF in all sorts of places.

But I don't feel guilty about FF either.

It's a choice, sometimes you BF, sometimes (for whatever reason) BF doesn't work or is difficult and you FF.

I wish people wouldn't get so evangelical and het up about either option - shoving BF down people's throats and making them feel guilty if they FF isn't helpful.

Agree, kungfupannda. I too was extraordinarily well supported in my BF efforts but sadly still could not breastfeed. I've had people say to me that there's no-one who can't BF which is hurtful - I know very well that I did my best and how upsetting it was at the time to still fail.

Because feeding is a simple issue. Because feeding is a complex issue.

The nature of informed choice means that we make the choice and therefore live with the consequences? decision? having the responsibility? - except that some mums will always feel that there was no choice or that the choice was made for them by someone else - baby? partner? HCP?

When expecting a baby it is difficult to exactly describe how breastfeeding will feel, how easy/hard it may be and all the pros and cons that that individual will face. There are no absolutes. Open - mindness? The approach should be that why not try it and see because usually (usually - not always) it is easier to attempt BF before FF because it may not work the other way round.

Equally it is difficult to exactly describe how formula feeding using a bottle will feel, how easy/hard it may be and all the pros and cons that the individual will face.

Does anyone here disagree that breast milk is the optimal food for nearly all babies save those with particular allergies? (See is 'optimal food' in itself the correct term to use without causing offence?).

What term should be used to describe formula milk? Breast milk substitute? Artificial milk? Formula?

What are the issues really?
And FWIW - I think what ever YOU do is fine - however as soon as you start to discuss what you do be prepared as the other person may disagree - or you may be spreading misconceptions/myths which perpetuate the discussion.

Discloser: Two children - BF both - never used formula - Had open mind when I started - had some problems ( was a long time ago so memory hazy!) - would probably have felt guilty if BF didn't last to 6 months. Unhappy with how BF is currently promoted, Unhappy with support in general for postnatal women, Unhappy with formula manufacturers and 'advertising' Unhappy that any women has to justify how they feed their baby.

sausages - I have never, ever, made any cruel or derogatory or dismissive remark about formula about formula feeding or about formula feeding mothers on mumsnet or indeed in my life. Why would I? I don't believe it helps anyone, and I don't believe these things and people deserve to have these sorts of remarks made about them.

I am referring to your post of 14.16 today.

You refer people to the other thread, where I am supposed to have made these horrible remarks.

I rarely feel personally hurt about things people say about me on mumsnet, but I admit it, I feel something like that now.

Please withdraw, or else link to the comment I am supposed to have made and I will try to see where the misunderstanding has happened.

And I don't think I would be over-reacting to report your post - but I will wait for your return so you can explain which remark I made.

My crush on TSC is becoming embarassing

tiktok If its any consolation I don't remember you as being one of the people who made offensive comments.

soverylucky - was your post to me? I did not make any comments like that, though!

xstitch, thank you.

I really think she has got me mixed up with someone else.

tiktok, you haven't said anything that could be taken as dismissive of formula feeders or cruel, and sausages knows that.

In fact I don't think Spudulika has either. She has been persistent and straight-talking but not cruel. However she has received some very nasty comments and name-calling on this thread which I think is bullying.

People dig out an unpleasant post about FFing from 2009 as an example when in this thread alone so many horrible words and phrases are used about posters who support BFing.

I haven't ever read anything from tiktok that wasn't super well informed and informative - and never unkind. I think the OP is narrow minded about what she is willing to believe but not cruel.

I feel that both you and spud were quite offensive over on the other thread....and very dismissive. Now if it's an offense for me to say so..then so be it.

Sure you may have your supporters...but I speak as I feel.

Please feel free to report me....I couldn't care less.
What I do care about is the way that some FF have been made to feel...and (to my mind that's un-acceptable). You have been quite vociferous in your views...and I'm quite entitled to say mine.