Bf 'nazis', lies, distortions, and the disinhibiting effect of the internet

[Spudulika]

Was listening to a programme of radio 4 yesterday about how people communicated differently on internet boards - how the lack of face to face contact dis inhibits people and encourages them to say things that are harsher and more confrontational than what they'd say while face to face with someone.

Got me thinking about posts I've seen here from people telling stories of really cruel, bizarre and ignorant things that have been said to them by other women advocating breastfeeding.

Such as people being told that they 'should' breastfeed, even though they've had a double mastectomy, are on chemotherapy or other drug regimes incompatible with breastfeeding, are suffering from serious physical illnesses , have a baby with physical disabilities which make bf impossible etc etc.

Also many, many comments from people saying they've been told plainly that they 'must' exclusively breastfeed, that formula is 'poison' or that formula feeding is 'evil'.

And I started to wonder why, given that I strongly advocate breastfeeding and know many other people in r/l who feel the same, and also spend way too much a fair amount of time on mumsnet discussing the subject, I've never heard (or seen here) anyone making these sorts of stupid, intrusive and cruel comments myself.

The worst I've seen here are a few mealy-mouthed comments about women who don't bf being 'selfish' - but nothing really extreme or downright cruel.

You'd think, wouldn't you, that if people are saying these things in real life that you'd also see these opinions expressed online (given the disinhibiting effect of the internet), but you don't really do you.

And yet according to many posters on this board and elsewhere there are many women out there advocating breastfeeding who are more than just tactless or a bit strident, but are actively stupid and spiteful.

So - what's really going on?

what TSC and kung fu have said!

and with regards to bfeeding rates in the UK, yes some people give up because of lack of support, but actually there is support out there if you know where to find it/access it, we need to make sure that all mothers KNOW how to access the support if they want/need it but ultimately from speaking to mums in rl and over the internet i have found that many have discovered that bfeeding just isnt always compatible with modern day life, esp those with more than one child.

we all know the benefits, that is is the natural way and we know where to get help if we need it and yes most problems can be overcome but ultimately bottlefeeding is generally a darn site easier for many women.

i love bfeeding and bfed my first three totally, right through till 3yrs of age (one was almost 4yrs when he weaned) then with no 4 i got pnp, one of the reasons i got so ill was because my prolactin levels were TOO high, so bfeeding actually made my condition worse. with no 5 i started bfeeding but actually the reality was with 4 other kids to look after, numerous school runs, pre school run, sports, music activities etc and a house to look after whilst my dp works long and unsociable hours that bottlefeedign was the easier option and meant that i could function and i have heard similar from many many mums in rl.

so when we can change society so that women have more support in the home and with their family commitments, maybe then more of them will be able to continue to bfeed, but i cant see that happening somehow.

so yes campaign against immoral companies (but you dont need to harp on about them on parenting forums) and make sure there is the information out there for those that want the help, but maybe acknowledge that bfeeding is an ideal that just doesnt always fit with many families lifestyles etc.

sausages, I haven't.

I haven't been cruel, unkind, dismissive or derogatory about formula or formula feeding or formula feeding mothers.

I might have been vociferous - possibly :) - but not about any of that.

You really cannot expect fair treatment, and a fair hearing, and chuck about accusations like that. Link to even one post of mine...I have just done a find on my name on that thread and there is nothing that fits the description!

One of my posts was this:

"I don't think there's any need for anyone to judge anyone for feeding behaviour/choices/decisions....how can anyone do this, when they cannot know the full story behind anyone's situation, and in any case, I think it's a cheek!

We can judge a society that puts up barriers to breastfeeding, without extending judgement to individual women.

The mature 'thing' is to take responsibilty for one's own decisions, and to feel comfortable about others taking responsibilty for theirs, surely?"

Cruel?

I don't think so!

Oh God, hide hide hide! Its the ceaseless banging on about it...

sausages , I'm not going to report you, and I accept it's all a bit dull me defending myself, but I was offended, and you are being unfair...it's not fair to say 'this is how I feel' and then blame me for your feelings, because I have said absolutely nothing you could interpret as being cruel or critical.

I've just been reading that post again...and you really do claim to be an authority on all things BF...and yes, very dismissive, not only towards me, but to others.

You base so much on a flawed survey...

Breastfeeding should be for everyone

I said - One prime advantage of FF is that you know exactly how much your baby is taking. To a new mother, that's quite an advantage."

Your curt response:

And to a baby, and a baby's health, it's actually quite a disadvantage!

and to MilaMae....

MilaMae - "Coping with a newborn isn't blissful for the vast majority of us,it's bloody hell on earth,hard work,sleep deprived,painful and an emotional rollercoaster particularly if you don't have the luxury of a 6 month babymoon."

That is not true, either! Vast majority?????

Quit generalising, per-lease!

You sound more than a tad school ma'am ish...very arrogant and condescending...a bit of a 'know all' who disregards people's real experiences at whim. Why is that? and why the lack of feeling?

Now please feel free to ban me or whatever....

Didn't have the time or the inclination to go through all your comments...

Should I be grateful that you decided not to have me banned? Shrugs!

Are you going to ban anyone who doesn't agree with the way that you speak to people?

sausages - MilaMae was generalising madly (nothing to do with feeding), and deserved to be pulled up on her bleak view that the 'vast majority' of women had a dreadful start to motherhood. I was not cruel in asking her to stop generalising! I was being factual about the disadvantage to the baby of the mother knowing the amount of formula - I was brief and to the point.

None of that is cruel, or critical of formula feeding.

If you don;t like my tone and you think I am condescending and school marmish, then feel free :) But none of it is cruel or offensive.

sausages , I'm not going to report you

you really do sound like a school prefect!

Off to the naughty step for me I guess.....unbelievable!

Come on Tiktock you do come on a bit strong sometimes!

I wanted to ask you this yesterday, in what way is a mother knowing how much formula's been taken a disadvantage to the baby?

You are over reacting. I said I would be justified in reporting you because of the false accusation of being cruel and the author of the most offensive thing you have ever read etc etc - if all you are objecting to is my tone which you don't agree with, then of course I would not dream of reporting you. As if.

So I take it that is what you are getting on your high horse about - nothing to do with cruelty and offensiveness and derogatory and so on....just you don't like my tone.

That's a relief :) :)

sausages

You speak to people how you like all the time on these threads. Why is it that a lot of posters here, including you, expect pro-BF posters to toe the line very carefully but pro-FFers can give it both barrels and that's fine! You are yourself very terse to say the least and you are really splitting hairs about tiktok's posts. And while we're on the topic would you care to quote how I have been cruel in any of the BF/FF threads?

But....but......the word 'report' is the term for clicking the button 'report'!!

Please tell me what the right word is!

'Cos I really, really don't want to sound like a prefect.

tab - start a new thread in the proper folder, and I'll be happy to contribute to it.

ok

How about the Breast and bottle feeding folder, tab? :)

rofl, aye that'd do it

Oh fuck off sausages and leave tiktok alone.

You don't like her tone? So what. She hasn't been offensive. She knows a fuck of a lot more about breastfeeding than you ever will and she's right - knowing how many ounces of formula your child is taking means NOTHING. Why does it help????? It's pretty easy to spot a baby who isn't getting enough - they don't wee, poor or gain weight ( I know, I've had two).

DON'T get snitty about tiktok's tone, she's been perfectly reasonable. And I speak as someone who completley unreasonably went off at another poster on a thread this morning because I was in a bad mood, sleep deprived and took offence where none was meanT!

Agree with springlambkin 100%

I found BF difficult when I had DD and was subjected to myths and misinformation from friends, family, adverts and HCP.

Even though I was a mere lurker when I had DS, tiktok's posts helped me enormously and BF was a breeze in comparison. Not always pleasant, no, but I knew what was normal and what to expect.

TheSecondComing, what have you been smoking little miss Stone Roses? Do you forget how many times you post about the dead baby picture i posted? (although it wasn't dead). It was a response to MilaMae banging on about how inconsequential formula is. For that baby, it was far from inconsequential. Anyhow, yes it was unreasonable and not particularly relevant to the thread, bar the fact that the baby's death was unnecessary, much like many women's experiences in this country, which imvho is a tragedy, much like that baby. Yes, it was misguided. Yes, it was hormonal (pregnant) and I saw red and had a mighty go at MilaMae and other twits for being ridiculously blind about various things. It was designed to have an impact and it did. Yes it was stupid. Yes I apologised.

I look forward to the next bf/ff thread where you post about it again .

And now tiktok is being attacked . I second what springlambkin said.

Bollocks, sausages. Sorry, utter bollocks. I've always been impressed that Tiktok, while being a breastfeeding counsellor who has helped a lot of people including me - has always been very even-handed on formula and nothing but supportive of people who have regrets about their feeding experience.

Do you have any evidence on your "vast majority" claim? Because I used to worry about that sort of thing when I was pregnant - before a wise mumsnetter pointed out to me that people who found it a breeze tended not to come online and talk about it, whereas those who had problems were more likely to do so, giving a skewed picture.

Who was the reassuring Mumsnetter? Tiktok, obviously. And I did find it a breeze. And if it's hard next time, it's reassuring to know people like Tiktok are there.

and i have just outed my name change. nice baby brain. twat. i give up.

I actually find Tiktok advice really good, she does not make people feel bad for using formula at all! Its the others that I have a gripe with, who do go down real heavy and do nothing to promote bf and all to make mums who for some reason could not bf feel bad, with their one size fits all views. Like somebody has said if you look at any mum who has had to give up bf, you will probably see a very sad situation behind it.