Bf 'nazis', lies, distortions, and the disinhibiting effect of the internet

[Spudulika]

Was listening to a programme of radio 4 yesterday about how people communicated differently on internet boards - how the lack of face to face contact dis inhibits people and encourages them to say things that are harsher and more confrontational than what they'd say while face to face with someone.

Got me thinking about posts I've seen here from people telling stories of really cruel, bizarre and ignorant things that have been said to them by other women advocating breastfeeding.

Such as people being told that they 'should' breastfeed, even though they've had a double mastectomy, are on chemotherapy or other drug regimes incompatible with breastfeeding, are suffering from serious physical illnesses , have a baby with physical disabilities which make bf impossible etc etc.

Also many, many comments from people saying they've been told plainly that they 'must' exclusively breastfeed, that formula is 'poison' or that formula feeding is 'evil'.

And I started to wonder why, given that I strongly advocate breastfeeding and know many other people in r/l who feel the same, and also spend way too much a fair amount of time on mumsnet discussing the subject, I've never heard (or seen here) anyone making these sorts of stupid, intrusive and cruel comments myself.

The worst I've seen here are a few mealy-mouthed comments about women who don't bf being 'selfish' - but nothing really extreme or downright cruel.

You'd think, wouldn't you, that if people are saying these things in real life that you'd also see these opinions expressed online (given the disinhibiting effect of the internet), but you don't really do you.

And yet according to many posters on this board and elsewhere there are many women out there advocating breastfeeding who are more than just tactless or a bit strident, but are actively stupid and spiteful.

So - what's really going on?

I have been on mn for several months now And still don't understand the obsession with the bf/ff debate.

The few months in which our children exclusively need milk is such a tiny part of their childhood and before you know it there are many other, much more important dilemmas to deal with.

Milk is food, given to keep our babies alive and healthy until they are fully weaned. Once they can walk and talk, that's when the real stress begins lol.

Surely more important than what choice of milk is give, is that our children, no matter how old, are loved, nurchered, clean and healthy and happy.

As long as those needs are catered for, no matter what infant feeding method a mother chooses for her own family and their own set of circumstances, then nobody has the right to judge. I wish people would spend more time looking at themselves before casting aspersions on others.

What is this "both sides" bollocks anyway? Loads and loads of us have breastfed and formula fed - which side do I belong on then? Fed both of mine til 6 months then chose to formula feed. Choosing to formula feed doesn't mean I didn't spend 12 months in total of my life with a baby hanging off me. So which 'side' am I supposed to be on?

Do you know what, I think actually it's all quite simple but feeding your child is so emotive that it gets tangled up in this web that reaches out across the feeding topic and we all fumble about in it being misquoted and misunderstood. To the point where vast swathes of people are just bored with the topic in general and the ennui starts to add to the illusion of nastiness.

Some people say nasty things. Sometimes those nasty and unthinking things are about bf or ff but they are said not because of anything to do with people and feeding choices but because some people are insensitive twonks.

There will always be a few people at the end of a spectrum whose opinions will veer into unpalatable but really the vast majority of us are sitting somewhere in the middle baffled and a bit bemused.

Because it's emotive, feelings get projected onto it. So if somebody says they're sorry that a ffer who ended up giving formula through lack of support, it's twisted to say that the person is sorry for the ff baby. Same as if somebody says the think breasts are for sex and bfing is icky. A bfer can claim that you're saying she's icky and unattractive to men. The general is made personal.

I think the thing is, there is a real issue with bf/ff in this country and it centres around two things: lack of appropriate support/information for bfers; unethical practice of formula companies.

I am quite passionate about bf from the pov of it being supported as a minority act now. About good information. About support. About pushing to make the arena of feeding one that is balanced and fair. I get angry about ill-informed hcps causing feelings of guilt or shame in a woman, or pushing her towards a decision she doesn't want to make (either way). And this passion is being damaged by terms like 'nazi' or 'crusade'. I think we need to be very careful about the damage these sorts of debates do to the issue as a whole. Getting bogged down in the subtleties of somebody's syntax just detracts from what could be a positive move towards supporting feeding choices and support for all. MN's quite clever when it wants to be. Extremely supportive. Kind beyond belief. This? It's not representative at all.

I don't know if it will ever change though. If we can actively choose to stop giving and taking offence where none is needed or meant. Because we all care and can so easily be hurt when it sounds even remotely like there's a criticism to be seized upon.

Certainly.
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/1192962-to-not-feel-an-oz-of-guilt

First comment at 22.24

Im not going to get into the debate of the cons of using formula ina developing country but the comment about babies dying from bottlefeeding was needless and nasty in the context.

Roger - am confused. Is it half term....cos Easter is just around the corner, when kids get 2/3 weeks off?

I couldn't care how anyone else feeds their babies. I bf mine and had many horrible, judgemental comments about it. At the time, I just laughed it off and got on with it.

I don't believe I was smug in any way. They always brought the subject up - not me. In fact, one friend who does not have children, actually said to the ff friends 'why do you care so much?'.

So, it's not always bfs judging ffs as it sometimes seems on these boards. Ime it has been the other way around.

I do think that many women, sadly, feel the need to criticize anything that is different to their own experiences. It's down to the individual.

"You seem incapable of expressing a point of view and then leaving it..."

Ah - is this how these things work?

I express a point of view. Some one disagrees. Perhaps says something abusive or personal. Perhaps just challenges some evidence I've put forward in support of my opinion.

But to show I'm reasonable - I don't respond!

I DO acknowledge and respond to people's views on here. I accept that women who ff are completely happy with the way they're feeding their baby. I haven't challenged that anywhere!

"What business is it of yours how mothers choose to feed their babies?"

Because this is a public health issue. Because we have an incredibly low bf rate in the UK and it's not the result of FREE PERSONAL CHOICE. If it was we wouldn't have such massively big disparities in rates of bf according to age and social class. We wouldn't have such an incredibly high fall-out rate from breastfeeding.

All is not rosy in the garden and some of us think that this needs light shedding on it.

Ok?

Spud have you not read the uber long post I just posted,there are quotes aplenty-yours.

I've let my kids watch Oggy and the Cockroaches in order to post it (will be living with the consequences all afternoon) so do take those selective reading glasses off and read it.

"The bottom line is that nobody should be encouraging illiterate and vulnerable women to purchase a product which it's almost impossible for many of them to use safely"

If that's your gripe - why don't you (and your army) stfu about the whole issue on mn?

springlamb - you will notice I put both sides in inverted commas for a reason - I was using it to mean "both sides" of the debate between people with completely opposing views on this, as evidenced here and the numerous other threads about it. Maybe it would have just been easier syaing opposing views.

OP - how do you respond to those of us saying "yes, people do make cruel comments" and "yes, we have been challenged in real life"?

MilaMae - she's not responding to any posts that point out that people on here ARE vicious about formula feeders. Y'know, saying that formula fed babies are ugly and have FAT RUBBERY FACES isn't something she plans to even acknowledge. Because the point, really, is just to talk about why breastfeeding is the right choice. The OP is just a smokescreen for her to tell us all about why breastfeeding is great. Most of us know why it's great!

I physically possible you should breastfeed,

if you can't then you can't.

I did have a BF haze when someone said to me 'I bottle fed all mine (6 kids) coz its easier!'

BUt newgoddream it's not a case of two opposing sides, it's not polarised like that for most people.

are you the original springlamb?

and yes, it is half term. I wondered whether that was why everyone was so shrill

spriglamb - fair enough - but again I didnt say opposing sides - just opposing views, of which I guess theres e.g black, white and a lot of grey inbetween.

I get it Spring-damn now got 3 little cockroaches bouncing off the walls chortling for nothing .

Spudulika if you've never seen the comments on the net about 'breastfeeding nazis' you just need to visit Nethuns Netmums. All smiles, hugs and tickers?! Not on that subject it isn't!
As you say, people in RL, and even on here are all downright normal and say each to their own. They're raging loons on there!

Re: the 'muck' comment on that thread

Yes - tactless.

But she posted a couple of comments on that thread altogether. Some people do hate the idea of giving their kids formula - lots of people hate highly processed food. Particularly when it's produced by huge multi-nationals accused of ill-doing and profiteering in developing countries, who have massive and high profile marketing strategies. I know where she's coming from, though I admit it must be needling for someone who's totally reliant on the product to hear it described in such a way.

About 3 years ago I had very negative comments on MN about FF. People leaping into a thread without reading my situation on the Op and telling me to 'be more determined', that I had 'let my baby down'. etc Had a few in RL too - along the lines of 'Oh, you're not feeding her yourself? ' Then patting DD's cheek and saying "Poor thing" to her. Also, "You do realise it's like giving her poison at that age don't you?" Only two women - both clearly unpleasant whatever their attitudes. I have never been lucky enough to have negative comments about BF in public or anywhere else because I never got far enough with it.

I think it is irrelevant whether the comments are coming from BF mothers or FF mothers. We should support each other non-judgementally and people who feel they have a right to criticise people they barely know aren't worth much. Most of us get on with feeding our babies as best we can without feeling it necessary to give unsolicited comments to others. The minority who give BF 'Nazis' their reputation, or who make BF mothers feel unwelcome do exist - on both sides I'm afraid - but take up a disproportionate amount of discussion time. Mainly because they pick an emotive subject and launch in with great insensitivity or actual nastiness. That's the real problem. Feeding is just a vehicle for their need to make themselves feel good by undermining others.

This is an interesting questions.

Sometimes I think that people have their own guilt issues and therefore imagine that people are thinking and saying things that they aren't.

For example, I was feeding my DD in a cafe and this woman kept staring at me. I felt so uncomfortable because I thought she was thinking that it was inappropriate that I was feeding her in public. Anyway, she came over and told me how great it was that I was breastfeeding!

I abhor the thought of any woman being told she should feel guilty because she chooses to ff - because I have worked with women struggling to deal with guilt surrounding this and seen the devastation and havoc it can cause and keep of causing in womans lives - thus potentially having a more negative impact on their children than not.

Oh come on Springlamb - put your handbag down and give me time!

I'll put my hand up and admit - there have been a few deeply stupid comments (rubbery faced babies etc), which I'd not thought about because they're so flaming rare.

Re: vastly stupid and weird comments about babies being better off starving or dead than ff, and women with mastectomies/on chemo breastfeeding that apparently have been made in REAL LIFE, and by HEALTH PROFESSIONALS..... Do you believe there are actual 'nazis' out there that would rather see a baby very sick or dead than ff?

"I abhor the thought of any woman being told she should feel guilty because she chooses to ff"

I think you'll find that 99.999% of people agree with you.

So that's one less thing to worry about.

"I abhor the thought of any woman being told she should feel guilty because she chooses to ff"

I think you'll find that 99.999% of people agree with you.

So that's one less thing to worry about.

"You do realise it's like giving her poison at that age don't you?"

Really?