Bf 'nazis', lies, distortions, and the disinhibiting effect of the internet

[Spudulika]

Was listening to a programme of radio 4 yesterday about how people communicated differently on internet boards - how the lack of face to face contact dis inhibits people and encourages them to say things that are harsher and more confrontational than what they'd say while face to face with someone.

Got me thinking about posts I've seen here from people telling stories of really cruel, bizarre and ignorant things that have been said to them by other women advocating breastfeeding.

Such as people being told that they 'should' breastfeed, even though they've had a double mastectomy, are on chemotherapy or other drug regimes incompatible with breastfeeding, are suffering from serious physical illnesses , have a baby with physical disabilities which make bf impossible etc etc.

Also many, many comments from people saying they've been told plainly that they 'must' exclusively breastfeed, that formula is 'poison' or that formula feeding is 'evil'.

And I started to wonder why, given that I strongly advocate breastfeeding and know many other people in r/l who feel the same, and also spend way too much a fair amount of time on mumsnet discussing the subject, I've never heard (or seen here) anyone making these sorts of stupid, intrusive and cruel comments myself.

The worst I've seen here are a few mealy-mouthed comments about women who don't bf being 'selfish' - but nothing really extreme or downright cruel.

You'd think, wouldn't you, that if people are saying these things in real life that you'd also see these opinions expressed online (given the disinhibiting effect of the internet), but you don't really do you.

And yet according to many posters on this board and elsewhere there are many women out there advocating breastfeeding who are more than just tactless or a bit strident, but are actively stupid and spiteful.

So - what's really going on?

I think people do talk differently on the internet. Not sure about BF convos but I do believe some people take the opportunity to say harsh thing they wouldnt in RL

Bubbley why the hell shouldn't TSC bring up that picture on a thread where the OP is claiming nobody is virulently vocal about formula feeding? That thread crossed a line, it was vile and if the OP wants to claim that that kind of thing doesn't go on here then why shouldn't we remind her that it does?

I've had 4 DC, bf for between 4 weeks and 4 months approx. For 2 of my Dc bf was relatively easy, for 2 it was difficult/painful at times and I either had far too much milk or not enough of it. Maybe these problems could have been fixed, but if a woman is finding something extremely uncomfortable or is worried that her baby won't thrive because there is not enough milk, then I think it's perfectly okay to swop to formula without other people trying to make her feel she has somehow failed her baby. And some people do try to make other women feel bad for their perfectly valid choices.

Having bf and ff, I can honestly say that my babies seemed equally happy with whatever they had. In the case of my DD, I think she must have been happier with formula because at least food was coming out of the bottle!

On a slightly separate note, did anyone watch that BBC3 programme last night where the SCBU said you would have to pay £100 for a litre of donated breast milk. She never explained where that came from, so does it mean that women are donating this for free and some company somewhere is selling it for profit?

Oh, I've just remembered the thread where someone claimed ff babies were ugly with rubbery faces. I think Jennifer Ellison's baby was namechecked (nice). Will look...

Sorry spudulika didn't realise there was a scale on which we were measuring nasty comments

I don't think some of the comments you highlighted are unacceptable, but I think they are cruel and unkind and rude.

To try to answer your question, Spudulika, as someone who couldn't bf and who has felt quite judged about it, cruel and nazi are overly hyperbolic. Smug, sanctimonious and judgemental are more on the money. I have seen a lot of casual, off the cuff remarks, on MN and elsewhere, by lactivists, which betray a subconscious link that's made between formula feeders and rednecky, slutty mums who don't give a shit and this is what people like me get upset by. To give you an example, there was a thread on here the other day when someone was being judgey about one of the people on One Born Every Minute for smoking during pregnancy (fair enough, I'm actually quite judgey about that.) She then concluded "I bet she (the smoking pregnant woman) had no breastmilk." Its this which upsets people like me: a slyly puritanical suggestion that if you're a formula feeder its because a) you're stupid, b) you're selfish, c) you're uneducated. Or, and this is the worst one, because you've been brainwashed by Big Pharma. This is the biggest canard. There are plenty of bad reasons why people don't bf, along with some good ones. Laziness and ignorance are up there. But the idea that formula feeders have all joined some sinister Nestle-backed group of suburban scientologists is just plain stupid. And offensive.
From my point of view, I've made by peace with not being able to bf. It's not the optimum, but neither is it the end of the world. I don't mind people going on MN banging on about bf-ing being best. But what I do object to is the implication that I'm stupid, selfish or in the pocket of Nestle.

Oh give it up spudulika, you're just being silly and rude now.

Who says that the nasty comments to BF mums vastly outweigh those made to FF mums? You? On what actual evidence?

And no it isn't much more cruel to make a comment to a BF mum.

And yes, I was given a magazine that said I should avoid 'artificial milk' as it could harm my baby. I was quite shocked by it.

I bet your cupboards are groaning with Milkybars Jeck

"You aren't allowed not to want to breastfeed"

Course you are.

People who say they love breastfeeding and they feel sorry for babies who aren't breastfed are expressing an opinion.

They're not telling you you have to share it!

TSC - you LOVE these threads.

The 'dead baby' picture (which I didn't see) has been used in the media to illustrate a desperately sad situation in developing countries and I think everyone accepts it isn't relevant to women on this site, except in so far as it might make them ask questions about the companies who are contributing to this problem and to whose profits they may be adding through their own consumer choices.

The poster has apologised over and over again. Actually I think she should apologise more for giving you and MilaMae the opportunity - for the next few years - of popping up on every single breastfeeding thread and ranting about BF Nazi's using pictures of dead babies to try to force people to breastfeed.

I have been critisized online for forumla feeding my first three children but never critisized for breastfeeding my fourth. I have been critisized in real life (mulitple times!) for breastfeeding my fourth but never for formula feeding my first three - its the exact opposite!

Spudulika - I can't find the fat, rubbery faces thread - it must have been in chat. Search reveals a poster called Pommedeterre also remembers it so it definitely happened.

So now you know - someone right here, on MN said that formula fed babies are ugly because they have fat, rubbery faces. How does that fit with what you said in your OP?

'but what I do object to is the implication that I am stupid, selfish or in the pocket of Nestle'

HELL YEAH.

You said it all. Especially the Nestle bit. I am highly educated, very well informed, and I don't remember even having seen a formula advert, never mind having absorbed it, believed it and then headed out to Superdrug in the manner of a lobotomised Stepford Wife whose brains leaked out on the delivery table.

I met IRL two women from mn when the three of us were pregnant.

Two are massive bf fans, to the extent that they've set up a donation programme and helpline between them.

I am a FF-er, for better or for worse so obviously we have very differing views about "care".

One of the women no longer talks to me and we were very close. I hope this is because she's busy and not because of the choice I made. :(

The debate is over spudulika if you are allowed to say that the 'sad' brigade are just expressing an opinion.

That's what we're all doing.

And sometimes those opinions cause hurt and offence. If your lot are allowed to do it, my lot can too. So nyaaah.

"Who says that the nasty comments to BF mums vastly outweigh those made to FF mums? You? On what actual evidence?"

On shaky evidence admittedly - just what I see here on mumsnet.

"And no it isn't much more cruel to make a comment to a BF mum. "

It is if it affects her ability to feed her child. Which is what making a bf mother feel mortified about exposing herself is going to do. Mothers regularly give up bf because they have difficulty in bf in public. Some of the nasty and crude comments here about lactating women's bodies and breasts will add to any feelings of anxiety about feeding a baby while out and about.

"And yes, I was given a magazine that said I should avoid 'artificial milk' as it could harm my baby. I was quite shocked by it."

I'm trying to work out what the magazine might have said. Something along the lines of formula use being linked to higher rates of vomiting and diarrhoea? Why would you be shocked by this? It's common knowledge! And did the article imply that you shouldn't use formula even if you're unable to breastfeed?

Sorry - I don't believe you!

FAT RUBBERY FACES, FAT RUBBERY FACES, FORMULA FED BABIES ARE UGLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE FAT RUBBERY FACES!!!!!

THAT WAS SAID ON HERE, WHAT IS YOUR OPINION ON THAT OP?

I hated my "lactating" body - I dont need anyone else to tell me they dont like it either - and it certainly wouldnt have stopped the milk coming out if they had of done!

Spud - you are one queer button!

I agree that to make a crass comment about BF is childish, rude and offensive.

But I will never concede that it is more offensive than a similarly rude comment made to a FFer, who may well alos be feeling shit about her choice.

Neither is OK.

Agrees with TheSecondComing's post further up the thread. It's time that people kept their beaks out, it really is none of anybody's business and it gets way too personal, every single tedious time.

I'm kicking myself for giving Spudulika's attention-seeking thread a bump, but hey ho.

Perhaps you should re-read your own comments/replies and those of Tiktok on the other thread....

From what I saw on their, you two made some of the cruelist, most dissmissive and condemnatory comments towards FF feeders that I have seen re the subject.

"If your lot are allowed to do it, my lot can too. So nyaaah."

Course you can.

But if we're talking about the right to choose - which we all hold dear, saying things that actually may inhibit women from establishing or continuing breastfeeding (which may be the result of her seeing things which increase her feelings of anxiety or shame about feeding away from home) actually impedes that choice.

And misrepresenting what people have said in order to justify feeling victimised is incredibly unhelpful to ALL mums - ff and bf.

what is the other thread?