Bf 'nazis', lies, distortions, and the disinhibiting effect of the internet

[Spudulika]

Was listening to a programme of radio 4 yesterday about how people communicated differently on internet boards - how the lack of face to face contact dis inhibits people and encourages them to say things that are harsher and more confrontational than what they'd say while face to face with someone.

Got me thinking about posts I've seen here from people telling stories of really cruel, bizarre and ignorant things that have been said to them by other women advocating breastfeeding.

Such as people being told that they 'should' breastfeed, even though they've had a double mastectomy, are on chemotherapy or other drug regimes incompatible with breastfeeding, are suffering from serious physical illnesses , have a baby with physical disabilities which make bf impossible etc etc.

Also many, many comments from people saying they've been told plainly that they 'must' exclusively breastfeed, that formula is 'poison' or that formula feeding is 'evil'.

And I started to wonder why, given that I strongly advocate breastfeeding and know many other people in r/l who feel the same, and also spend way too much a fair amount of time on mumsnet discussing the subject, I've never heard (or seen here) anyone making these sorts of stupid, intrusive and cruel comments myself.

The worst I've seen here are a few mealy-mouthed comments about women who don't bf being 'selfish' - but nothing really extreme or downright cruel.

You'd think, wouldn't you, that if people are saying these things in real life that you'd also see these opinions expressed online (given the disinhibiting effect of the internet), but you don't really do you.

And yet according to many posters on this board and elsewhere there are many women out there advocating breastfeeding who are more than just tactless or a bit strident, but are actively stupid and spiteful.

So - what's really going on?

"But I will never concede that it is more offensive than a similarly rude comment made to a FFer, who may well alos be feeling shit about her choice."

The difference is that BF is vastly more vulnerable to social conditioning than formula feeding - hence the incredible fall-out rate among mums here in the UK. Bad attitudes, cruelty and ignorance actually impact on breastfeeding mothers' ability to feed their baby. Not so ff mums.

"saying things that actually may inhibit women from establishing or continuing breastfeeding (which may be the result of her seeing things which increase her feelings of anxiety or shame about feeding away from home)"

On which parallel universe Mumsnet website are you reading?

hahaha I've never heard anything so daft in my life!

I think that some people have been here SO long that they are immune/numbed re what they type and the effect that they have on real people's feelings.

I felt so sorry for some of the mothers who admitted FF feeding...who struggled with their guilt. Guilt borne possibly from comments like yours....

I think it's disgusting that fellow mothers can be so heartless towards others who simply make different choices....

As a newbie I've been stunned!

I have had only read the original post but I completely disagree and I think alot of the misunderstandings come from the written word being misinterpreted far more than verbal communication which would accompany body language, facial expression etc.

I couldn't breastfeed a baby because they were disabled and no-one was horrible to me about it, either on mumsnet or in real life. The most important thing that was my child got fed, it didn't matter how that was done and I think anyone sensible would have agreed

"People who bang on about bf, letting ther febrile minds wander over what blissful joy it must be to be bf, how sad it must be to be a ff baby etc etc get criticised a lot and rightly so.

People like you get criticised, but its not because you BF, its because you bang on about it. "

Oh sorry - are we not allowed to even discuss it with other people who're interested in it now!

Actually wanting to TALK ABOUT IT , or talk about what feeding is like for babies is unethical.....

Honestly - if we're talking about FASCISM...........

"no one but ever critises bf mums for their feeding choices on MN"

That depends how you take the threads started by people who don't want to bf because they find it disgusting or because they don't want their sexual breasts taken over by their baby [paraphrasing].

I really hate the use of the word Nazi for anything other than those that persecuted the jews and others during 30's and 40's. I do think it is a terrible use of the word.

Now I've said that :)

Meh, so the internet and chat rooms in particular are full of people that exaggerate. Not really a massive surprise is it? Anonymity means you can say and be what you want, sometimes it is a funnier or ruder version of yourself, and sometimes it's a total fantasy, it goes with the territory.

Changing...it's about the programme last night.

A poster who stated they chose to ff and didnt feel guilty was told on a thread yesterday "You do feel guilty, you know you do - and rightly so!" plus that babies die everday from bottle feeding in some countries (conveniently blaming it on the formula of course not the contaminated water) and called formula "synthetic, artificial muck".

Now why should anyone be told they should feel guilty about not bf?

"who struggled with their guilt. Guilt borne possibly from comments like yours...."

OK - so if nobody talked about breastfeeding then nobody would feel guilty about not doing it?

Should we also suppress all information about the benefits of bf in health information aimed at new parents?

Because that makes people feel guilty as well, as does midwives, doctors etc raising the topic.

Anything else we shouldn't discuss because it makes parents feel guilty?

Can I vote for a veto on all discussion of private education, because it makes me feel hugely guilty that my dd goes to a rough comprehensive and isn't getting the education I would have wanted for her?

Ditto people taking their kids on foreign holidays or living in areas where there dc's get to spend a lot of time outdoors.

Spud - ah, so because you cant afford to educate privately, you are breeding a world super power by simply breastfeeding up to puberty? Please.

Right obviously op you do engage in selective reading,your hypocrisy is astounding.

A few quotes from yourself-

"I think infancy should be as blissful as possible and bf is part of what makes it lovely for babies"

"Really if you want complete autonomy don't have kids"

This was a corker-

"I imagine being a baby can be very nice indeed-when they're having their needs met" ie ff babies aren't.

"I'm trying to widen out the discussion beyond the health issues and the emotional,social needs of adults" ie selfish ff mums put their needs before their babies.

In answer to these paragraphs of shite and in an attempt to illustrate how hurtful your comments could be I simply pointed out that really you had no room to lecture me as you weren't even there doing all this blissful skin to skin apparently my babies were missing out on. That I had put my babies needs before my own ie had a career break(which I acknowledged not all women can do or want to do,nor should do).

And I quote-

"Just a small observation. Some might say a mother who has returned to work when her baby is 5 weeks old isn't getting it's needs met"

"So why was your baby left at 5 weeks getting a more blissful existence than my ff twins whom I gave teaching up for"

"Now personally I don't give a stuff when mums return to work as taking a career break isn't possible or in the best interests of mothers,child or family for many people and all families/mums are different."

Basically I was highlighting an issue that has been highlighted continuously to you ie why is it open season where bf is concerned but in most other areas of mothering a little bit of understanding is expected?

I simply used your own diction and put in your life experience. Perhaps now you can see why ff mothers get upset,not nice is it?

Live by the sword die by the sword.

Re this op -paragraphs of shite(which do appear on here regularly) are as hurtful as slogans.

It would be nice if the same restraint given to other parenting issues could be shown to the bf/ff issue

FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES FAT RUBBERY FACES

soupdragon - never seen a thread like that but no doubt they exist - I chose to ff because I didnt want to and would never criticise anyone for choosing to bf. Why cant people on "both side" live and let live, be happy and comfortable with their choice - regardless of what it is - without feeling the need for attacking someone on the "other side" I wonder.

Hmm not a regular poster but find a lot of hositility to spud..... why??????? [puzzled]

The problem is, OP, that something you might not find offensive might be extremely distressing and upsetting to someone else. Or someone else might be aware of previous comments by a particular poster that make it clear that a comment is intended to be hurtful, even if that is not apparent to you.

There is nothing wrong with challenging ridiculous assertions that all BFing mums are sanctimonious and pushy, but I am really surprised that you have not come across any comments that you think are cruel or extreme, to the extent that you start a thread about how this does not happen in your experience.

I have seen many, many comments on here that are clearly intended to offend and hurt, or to elevate the poster's own opinion of themselves at the expense of another. It was the same on another parenting forum I joined before finding MN.

In real life I have had comments from two women about mix-feeding and later FFing. One was simply insensitive and badly-informed - she was at a BFing cafe I used to attend and kept banging on at me with ill-thought out advice as to how I could "do better" at BFing - her words, not mine. Fortunately, the MW running the group was the one who had supported me through my struggle to exclusively BF and was aware of the difficulties I had experienced and eventually slapped the other woman down quite hard, although she did have a go at arguing with the MW when she told her that there are a small proportion of women who will be unable to BF successfully. The other woman was at a weaning session and she was deliberately antagonistic, smug, spiteful and openly offensive towards me - to the extent that my very mild-mannered friend challenged her directly about her comments which included a suggestion that I was effectively force-feeding my child.

The flip side of that is that I have been with a BFing friend when an old lady made a rude comment towards her.

These things happen. They may not happen very often but they do happen. People post such experiences on relevant threads so certain threads will become "saturated" with bad experiences. It doesn't mean there are a suspicious number of such incidents, just that people are naturally coming forward to give their own experiences.

It's not talking about it Spud...it's the way that you go on about it and the disregard you have for others.

Why post this? was it so that you could bang on about BF for the rest of the week?

You seem incapable of expressing a point of view and then leaving it...
You have to go on and on...AND...you don't LISTEN or acknowledge others with experience of FF....it's as if their experiences, their feelings don't matter to you.

Why the crusade...and why the inability to accept the choices of other mothers?

What business is it of yours how mothers choose to feed their babies?

"Now why should anyone be told they should feel guilty about not bf?"

They shouldn't be. Can you link us to the thread so I can see the comment in context?

"plus that babies die everday from bottle feeding in some countries (conveniently blaming it on the formula of course not the contaminated water) "

Oh come on - that's a bit crap isn't it? The risks associated with formula use in developing countries are intrinsic to the use of this product within the environment in which it's being marketed and sold. The bottom line is that nobody should be encouraging illiterate and vulnerable women to purchase a product which it's almost impossible for many of them to use safely, when they have a safe and free alternative of their own to hand.

Actually, I don't have a problem with their being a "crusade" or with people being concerned about general feeding trends and the associated health matters. I have always encouraged others to at least try BFing, even after the problems I experienced, and I am hoping against hope that things might be different with a second baby should I have one.

What I have a problem with is the failure by many pro-BFing posters to take on board that it doesn't matter if they feel something is not offensive - if the people being talked to feel it is offensive then they are likely to switch off from listening to the content. What concerns me is the fact that by failing to accept what people are saying about how certain types of comment make them feel, those who say they are trying to promote/normalise BFing are actually alienating their target audience.

Well I give up Spudulika - why did you start the thread if you weren't prepared to confront the evidence?

Go away, take your crusade elsewhere.

"Why cant people on "both side" live and let live, be happy and comfortable with their choice - regardless of what it is - without feeling the need for attacking someone on the "other side" I wonder."

Well, as a breastfeeder, you aren't allowed to say how wonderful you found it in case you make a bottle feeder feel guilty. You aren't allowed to make comment on the "advantages" of breasfeeding because you may make a bottle feeder feel guilty. You can't make a comment about the "disadvantage" of formula in case you make a bottle feeder feel guilty....

Is everyone a bit fed up of half term?