To hate the Grand National

[Lucyinthepie]

Well, I do anyway. To quote a discussion on another forum, here's why:
"A total of 35 horses have died at the Grand National since 1999. That means an average of 2.5 horses per year/race. This does not compare to any other equine event held in this country."
There is no other sinlge competetive equine event in the whole of the UK where the horses entered have such a statistically high chance of meeting their death, on the same day every year.
The stats for the whole of racing are bad enough, and there are arguably some callous practises in the industry, where the animals are largely treated as disposable commodities. But, leaving that aside for now - this race - not worth it.

(Don't tell me the owners love their horses, maybe some do, but in my experience working as a groom on a racing yard for a year, the majority think they have some great investment. If the horse is lame they are more worried about when it will race again than the welfare of the horse. They'd be lucky to be able to pick their horse out if it was in a field with 10 others and not wearing their colours).

Oh and as others have said - I have a warmblood (sport's horse) - I left her this morning eating grass with her mates. She has no ambition in life bar to piss me off , she doesn't wake up on a Saturday morning and think "hope we're going to a competition today". Giddy up.

turkeyburger, I have worked with horses all my life too, and am also highly qualified, in a number of specialities, including genetics.

Everything I have said is available in peer reviewed scientific literature. If you are "qualified", you will know where to find it. By the way, Horse and Hound is not a scientific journal.

What you have spouted, is the usual guff touted by those who "work" with horses, who make a living with horses, who see horses as a commecrcial commodity. Its guff designed to justify what you do.

And thats fine, but tell it like it is and dont spout pseudo science, there is always going to be a real scientist about who knows bullsht when they see it.

Just because other animals and other people are dying on the same day doesn't make it wrong to point out the barbarity of such events and to focus on these specific deaths. If a person is killed, people are upset about THAT person, no matter how many other people may have died on the same day. Same with animals, just because animals are routinely slaughtered for food or killed for 'sport' in other countries doesn't mean that being horrified by individual cases and events is wrong. That is actually a weak argument that can be applied to anything. People would never grieve if it was the case as there is always something else bad happening. Anyone could throw out that argument to avoid dwelling on pointless deaths and it simply means that they actually can think of no other argument to justify than distraction.

its an argument for or against anything, its a question as to why, which is entirely pertinent to the matter at hand.

*its not an argument.

ive never liked the gn ,its too long for the horses to run,too many running too many fencers for them to jump, just so some fat cat trainer can get a few grand ,also jockeys over whipping them lets see how they would like it

Hmmm funny that Monty...I'm sure I've crossed your path if that is indeed the case. Interesting! I'd have thought if you know about the history and science behind the genetics involved in the Racing insustry then your posts would be rather different.

Can anyone smell bullshit?

Montysma1 - thank you. I can't add to what you have said, it's scientific and behavioural fact.

Personally, as I've said on a previous page of this very thread, I can live with the concept of animals bred for meat being killed to be eaten. I am not comfortable about the welfare standards in the industry and for that reason eat less meat because I make sure I know how it has lived and been slaughtered, buying from trusted local farmers.

I do think that the vegetarian argument muddies the waters because in this case we are talking about animals dying in the cause of people's entertainment.

AlpinePony "Oh and as others have said - I have a warmblood (sport's horse) - I left her this morning eating grass with her mates. She has no ambition in life bar to piss me off , she doesn't wake up on a Saturday morning and think "hope we're going to a competition today". Giddy up."

Giddy up??
Anyway, mine like going to shows. I'd retire them from competition if they didn't. My big boy is trots into the horsebox on the morning of a show, but getting him to leave, before all the other horseboxes have gone, is rather more difficult. You're lucky to have grass at this stage of year, we're still feeding hay when here when we turn out in the mornings.

Haven't read the rest of this thread since last night, have spent all day with my horse.

I live about 5 minutes from aintree and I can guarantee those horses are treated like royalty, they are well looked after. Thing is if you ban the grand national, you would have to bad all horse racing, which generates a lot of money for the local areas in tourist trade and taxes and creates lots of jobs.
The grand National is a huge thing round here. It is upsetting when horses die but that could happen in any sport including ones that are performed by purely humans.

keepingupwiththejones ...and there would no cheap supply of sound, well educated, traffic proof TBs for happy hackers like some of the posters on here buy if not for racing.

Applauds MontysMa

Well said.

Really? I live about 5 minutes away from thousands of people and I couldn't tell you the first thing about their lives, but there you go.

I remember a few years ago when one of the tabloids had a huge photo captioned "This is the moment that [horse] broke its neck". I hadn't watched the race, thankfully, and wouldn't, in case I saw something like that.

I agree with monty's "Horses, - naturally - do not gallop flat out for several miles, unless they perceive themselves to be threatened." But if racing is going to continue (which doubtless it will), at least the GN could be made safer. But lovers of this so-called sport don't want that, do they?

YANBU

"I live about 5 minutes from aintree and I can guarantee those horses are treated like royalty, they are well looked after."
The way racehorses are kept may look like them being cared for like royalty, but as said before on this thread, it isn't that great. Longer term racehorses suffer from behaviour and physical problems resulting from the way they live.
I agree with those who are saying that not a lot is going to change though. I'd like to see something done to reduce the fatalities and in particular, to make the Grand National safer, or even discontinue it.

Lucyinthepie many racehorses do get turnout now. Compared to the average happy hacker in a livery yard, where "turnout" generally consists of a little square of electric fenced mud, I don't think its the main issue. However National Hunt horses, which steeplechasers are, generally get the summer out at grass. They take so long to produce, the relationship between team and horse is often very important - think of the efforts made recently to save Monet's Garden who picked up a foot infection in the stable, although he was at retirement age already.

In fact, steeplechasers get much longer to mature than flat horses. As you are aware, the size of the jumps in the Grand National have been reduced for safety. However the danger with decreasing jump sizes is that you encourage speed, and its really speed combined with jumping in big fields on fast going, rather than the jumping itself, wherein the danger lies.

Another misunderstanding - flat racehorses do suffer injury. Perhaps more in the States, where they mainly race on dirt - think of the horrendous injuries to Barbaro and others.

Finally, can I just point out that more and more horselovers and riders like myself have to do stuff like jumping and competition because we can't get out hacking any more. This is due to the proliferation of housing estates taking over the countryside and too many fast, dangerous drivers speeding on rural roads, which make it unsafe to hack even the most traffic proof horse. My friend's horse bled to death following being run into on a quiet country road by a speeding driver - we had to sit on her head to stop her trying to get up because she had broken leg, and wait for the vet, who unfortunatley couldn't get there in time. At least she knew she was with friends and cared for when she passed away. Please bear this in mind when you drive on country roads.

Excellent posts on here from monytsma

As someone else who has worked with horses, took equine studies at college, have studied mammal biology at Uni level, and has horses I am very much on the side of Monty here (and heh @H&H as a scientific journal!). Although really, I don't know why I need to reel that off, it is obvious to all here with any knowledge of horses whatsoever that TurkeyBurger is talking some total crap.

Turkeyburger - yes there is a gene pool that produces racers, that is where the POTENTIAL to become a racer comes from, it is with training and grain dense diets that they become racers - and the place of the racecourse, and the human on their back, and the technology of the tack, whips and shoes...all of this combines, you simply cannot reduce it to genetics, especially as the evidence suggests that horses are naturally grazers who slowly roam. Even if genetics were to account for it somewhat, and we say okay, racers are inbred freaks who therefore have different genetics to other horses, then you are still being incredibly blinkered in your ignorance of all the other 'parts' that go in to creating the assemblage that is a racer.

As for 'Joe Public' having contact with horses - bollocks, bollocks, bollocks, they have contact with the bookies and the don't give a fuck about the real living, breathing creature-in-the-flesh that is racing.

*racehorse not racing

Nijinsky +1

The thing is, the vast majority of the oh-so-caring public are only momentarily interested because the Grand National is in the public eye. They will quickly forget about it and have little interest, and dare I say, little understanding, of horse welfare until the next news headline. Its nice that they are concerned for horses but please don't think it is good to attribute to them human characteristics; they have entirely different emotions and motivations.

Incidentally, TBs are by far the most inbred horsebreed. They all orginate to 3 different sire lines 400 years ago (2 of which are dying out) and I think 22 female lines. I do not think it incorrect to use the phrase "they are genetically programmed for horse racing" when they have been specifically and selectively bred for upwards of 4 centuries for that very purpose.

Just got a chance to actually watch the race, so sad about the two fatalities. Ballabrigs was not distressed at the end, he was sweaty and needing cooled down and rehydrated, and this was prioritised rather than taking him into the winner's enclosure. Horses are designed to sweat when they exert themselves. Awful tragedy for the two horses which died though. If only they could have returned safely but accidents happen in all spheres, even in the field.

Not sure if I was a racehorse owner, I'd run a horse at Aintree though. Damned flat, fast course.

Just to confirm all the Grand National haters on here are vegans? Afterall, battery and intensive farming is the most cruel treatment of animals.

I think this year has been quite significant - in the tide of change in peoples' conscience. This one race really IS outrageously barbaric and it does need to be shortened - on a par with the other races.

In our house we all ended up shouting - "please let my horse finish the race ALIVE!" We as a family have always betted on this one race - but this year the penny seems to have dropped, thank God and we won't be betting on it again.

Just to mention that I didn't say that racehorses never get turnout. I'll also mention that none of my friends would dream of keeping their horses at a livery yard where the horses only get an electric fenced square of mud. I think that saying that is generally the case at livery yards is a bit silly don't you? I work with people and there horses all over the place and can't remember the last time I've seen this (apart from starvation paddocks for the lammi-prone of course).
I know horses die in other circumstances. To me, there are some circumstances that are just not acceptable, and those are the ones where people are knowingly putting their horses in a high risk situation. This is another en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_Race (If of sensitive nature don't, whatever you do, look for that on You Tube).
Grumpystiltskin, I don't know how many times people are expected to reply to your point. If you read the thread they have, several times.
In any case, I don't think that one necessarily excludes the other. People as individuals choose their battles. Just because they want to fight one cause, it doesn't mean they are obliged to fight another. In any case, this discussion happens to be primarily about the Grand National. You don't know who here also campaigns for fair treatment for farm animals, or who doesn't.