To hate the Grand National

[Lucyinthepie]

Well, I do anyway. To quote a discussion on another forum, here's why:
"A total of 35 horses have died at the Grand National since 1999. That means an average of 2.5 horses per year/race. This does not compare to any other equine event held in this country."
There is no other sinlge competetive equine event in the whole of the UK where the horses entered have such a statistically high chance of meeting their death, on the same day every year.
The stats for the whole of racing are bad enough, and there are arguably some callous practises in the industry, where the animals are largely treated as disposable commodities. But, leaving that aside for now - this race - not worth it.

(Don't tell me the owners love their horses, maybe some do, but in my experience working as a groom on a racing yard for a year, the majority think they have some great investment. If the horse is lame they are more worried about when it will race again than the welfare of the horse. They'd be lucky to be able to pick their horse out if it was in a field with 10 others and not wearing their colours).

No, the animals best interest would have been to be pulled up rather than whipped round the course in extreme heat, to the point of collapse.

Caring? Thats your definition of caring? Seriously?

The fence sizes should not be reduced as to do that encourages speed and speed is the last thing you need, you want to slow the race down. Some of those horses were running at two and a half mile pace yesterday not four mile pace. The simplest thing is to reduce field size to say max 30.

I agree. I think the changes to the fences have made the course more dangerous by encouraging speed. Ginger McCain said as much today - I've met and interviewed him and he should know what he's talking about.

ducks out of line of fire

Just wanted to provide an update on Ballabriggs :-) and explain why the jockey couldn't stay with the horse.

Matthew Wright's panel is discussing it. That bitch on wheels Anne Diamond and that prick Dr David Bull are there supporting it because the danger is part of the excitment. Twats.

I hate it. Watched it for what I think was the first time this weekend, was actually in tears over the dead horses (I didn't know at the time if they were dead, but thinking of them lying there in pain, presumably going to be shot), the talk about having to strap horse's tongues down so they don't choke to death with the exertion, seeing them being whipped and forced on despite exhaustion and dehydration. I will not be watching again.

And I don't know a lot about horse racing, but if it's anything like dog racing the deaths/injuries that happen on the actual race track are only the tip of the iceberg compared to those killed for not being useful any more.

I don't eat meat personally, but can see the purpose of farming animals for food more easily than I can understand this sort of thing. What is the point of it? I don't particularly like gambling either so am not keen on that side of it either. Very unpleasant industry IMO.

Montysma - having just finished reading Donna Haraway's 'When Species Meet' I am wondering whether you ARE Donna Haraway!? :)

Most of the earlier posters on here "care" so much about animal welfare that they haven't even bothered revisiting the thread. For them, a statement on an internet forum is about as near as they come to a real live horse in their lifetimes, yet they think their misplaced consciences give them the right to dictate to people who spend their lives living and working with them and who have to deal with the pleasant and not so pleasant aspects of animal welfare.

Ephiny your statements are kind but shrouded in sentiment and factually inaccurate - strapping down horse's tongues is infrequent but better than swallowing their tongue and is not confined to racing - if my horse swallowed his tongue, I would do it too. The finishers were tired, but not exhausted - sweating is a natural response in mammals to exertion and exertion is not in itself cruel. If you cared enough about animal welfare to actually read most of this thread, you would find out more about the industry and the retraining of racehorses and you would be aware that it is not confined to racehorses. Is it too much to ask that someone who pretends to care about animal welfare educate themselves about what they are trying to talk about?

expatinScotland I endanger my horse every time I hack out, due to people driving too fast. What do you suggest I do? Confine my horse to a small field and stable and ride him round a ring with no relaxing hacking? Not all of us want to live a life restricted by fear and lack of adventure. Some of us want to keep ancient skills and traditions alive. Competition provides the medium to test these skills under controlled, regulated conditions, as in any sport.

Far, far more cruelty is caused to animals by ignorance and misplaced sentiment than by professionals in the racing industry. I hope if any of you are dog owners, you do more than give your dogs (unless minatures) 10 minutes walk along concrete footpaths each day. I hope if you are cat owners, you ensure your cats have access to natural environments to stimulate them and are not confined to houses.

ephiny why watch it then if you dont like gambling and dont like horse racing ?

I agree nijinsky - for people who are not usually around horses and do not have an idea of the complexities, it is easy to be shocked and then forget :( But it is good that people have some kind of awareness and then they will hopefully use that awareness to better educate themselves. As someone who is primarily a happy hacker these days, I also hope that people become better educated and aware of driving sensibly around horses. So often my riding routes are defined by avoiding certain roads due to the fear of un-knowledgeable and ignorant drivers.

Can I ask what the Daily Mail readers on here do when one of their frequent cutesy picture spreads of deformed minature horses standing next to a Shire, or dressed up animals with dyed hair is featured? The former in particular is far more cruel than the Grand National.

Encouraging the public to view animals which are deliberately bred so as to reproduce serious genetic deformities, and which will never be able to lead a healthy, happy equine life, is so cruel it is off the scale.

But presumably because it passes the sentimentality test, no-one even bothers enough to point this out.

ManateeEquineOhara "As someone who is primarily a happy hacker these days, I also hope that people become better educated and aware of driving sensibly around horses. So often my riding routes are defined by avoiding certain roads due to the fear of un-knowledgeable and ignorant drivers."

I so agree. There is a country road that I have to ride on to get out of my yard but it is very straight and some drivers go along it at 60mph plus, despite its having numerous driveways and small farms on either side along its length. My horse is excellent in traffic, but when drivers are so ignorant that they come so close to your horse that you feel the whoosh of air at 60mph, you really are putting your life in your hands. Or when they squeeze past you because they can't be bothered waiting til the car on the other side of the road passes. I wonder what their views are on the Grand National? Yet when faced with a real live horse, its just a nuisance to them.

Ignorance and sentimentality both have lazieness in common, and both of them are just as harmful to genuine animal welfare.

Apart from deflecting to to other 'more deserving' topics or saying somebody is not entitled to an opinion because it's something you presume is mere sentimentality, is anyone actually able to justify the grand national being a good thing? Is it all about money (which is millions) or do horses actually gain from this? Oh and plenty of people are not just going to forget this, they are joining groups such as animal aid or other and many people will do something and at the lest they will think twice before betting again on this despicable 'sport'.

I don't usually watch it (am 30 and have never in my adult life seen it before), this weekend happened to be sitting in a room (at ILs house) where someone turned on the television and it was being shown. I could have got up and left the room, I suppose, and probably will next time.

nikinksky, I understand that strapping down the horse's tongue is better than it being swallowed, of course, but surely it would be better not to push them to such a stage where that's likely to happen? Or have I misunderstood and is this something some horses are just prone to do under 'normal' conditions?

I agree with your point about not being restricted by fear and living a safe, dull life. I have no problem with people doing things like motor racing where they freely choose to take risks with their own safety. But then cars don't suffer when you crash them. It is not right or fair to use animals like this for your own entertainment and sport, and I'm sure on some level you know that.

Anyway I expect this sort of 'sport' will go the same way as fox hunting and other blood sports before too much longer, there does seem to be a tide of public opinion increasingly turning against it, though it may be a slow process.

jellybean I've already said much of this on this thread already. But here we are:

• competition provides a controlled medium for testing and comparing standards and therefore contributes to improvement of standard by incentivising those involved
• breeding racehorses for late maturity and stamina is preferable to denigrating the breed into fast maturing 2 and 3 year olds who fade just as quickly
• it preserves traditional standards of horsemanship and provides massive employment

-prize mone in jump racing is relatively low compared to the cost of buying and more particularly producing horses the number of years it takes to reach the Grand National

• the Grand National is the way it is (big fields leading to excess speed) due to the betting interests

If "plenty of people are not just going to forget this", might I suggest they get their own houses in order first, drive more carefully in the countryside and direct their minds towards the real aspects of animal cruelty that go on (and which the RSPCA is invariably disinterested in, leaving the smaller, less public charities to do their work).

Ephiny yes, some horses are prone to swallowing their tongues under normal riding conditions but in general riding, you have time to notice and pull it out. I had a Dutch warmblood that did it once and I tied it for showjumping with a pair of tights (which sounds awful but it is actually one of the best materials for the job). You certainly don't want to leave the risk of a horse swallowing its tongue while racing. Its a preventative. Its not really a significant issue.

Can I also point out that foxhunting continues more popular than ever, certainly where I am in Scotland? Foxes are shot now instead but people still hunt. Hunting provides a great second job for ex-racehorses and indeed my ex-showjumper, who I retired last year, now has a great time hunting twice a week - she absolutely loves it.

Can I also point out that horses do recover quite easily from getting sweaty and being exerted. Racehorses are trained for this, in fact as a rider, I was always trained to jump off the horse and loosen my girths the minute I was finished whatever I was doing - it is drummed into you from a small child to look after the welfare of your horse before yourself and this discipline would benefit many children.