children can make their own mind up about religion when they grow up...

[AliGrylls]

Okay I have just read this on another thread but this is a statement I hear quite a lot and want to ask the question.

If all you teach your child is atheism how will they make their mind up about religion when they grow up because they have no religion other than atheism?

They will know nothing other than what you have taught them so they have nothing to make their mind up about - they will be atheist, by default. If people genuinely want their children to make their own mind up they have to provide them with a reasonable alternative (ie, Judaism / Christianity / Islam).

I don't actually know any adults who have been brought up atheist who have thought all of a sudden "I believe in God, I am going to go to Church".

That's just nonsense. Some religious people and some atheists believe in sex outside of marriage, and some don't.

Some atheists and some religious people believe in giving large sums of money to charity, and some don't.

There isn't a particular morality attached to atheism. Atheists choose different moral values and systems from each other.

imgonnaliveforever - I know hundreds of supposedly religious people who fornicated all over the shop, in and out of marriage. Who were adulterers, who told lies,etc etc. I suppose they might believe they are now going to hell but their religions didn't stop them at the time behaving in a most ungodly manner. So I still don't get your point.

I give regular direct debits to charity because I think it is a good thing to do, not because the Church tells me!! I don't know if it is 10% but how many religious people do that anyway??

You are not defending your position very well at all.

Of course what you believe affects your life choices. What is your point?@imgonnaliveforever

I have sex or not or give to charity or not because I choose to accorning to my wishes, morality and financial situation. This would apply whether I am religious or not.

Morality and faith are not the same thing.

If God exists, and if he wants my children to follow him, he'll make sure they get the urge, or the itch, or whatever it is that makes people suddenly Get God.

If he exists and he isn't fussed whether they follow him or not, he won't give them the urge, but he won't hold it against them that they aren't Goddy either, because it won't be their fault, will it?

I agree with you Spero

I know several people who were brought up without religion but sought out religion for themselves and are now deeply religious. I think some people feel that need and will find a way to satisfy itself.

I was brought up Jewish, and thought I would do the same with dcs. But I was trying to tell ds the story of channukah when he was three and I found that I simply could not say to him, 'and then God made a miracle'. So now I am stuck and I don't know how we will approach the problem of religion.

As for ethics, i think mine are informed by utilitarianism, rather than religion ( I know that is controversial). There are other ways of finding a moral or ethical code.

I never said that morality was the preserve of the religious (in fact I specifically made that clear in my first post). Obviously religious people are not the only people who get married, give away money etc.

Spero, I like your example about stamp collecting. But similarly I would say that exercising regularly is a hobby. Obviously "not exercising regularly" is not a hobby, but both are a lifestyle choice. The choice not to take regular exercise may not be a hobby, but it is still a lifestyle choice which creates a difference between the person who exercises and the one who doesn't, in terms of fitness, health, weight etc.

OBVIOUSLY not saying atheists get not exercise. Just showing that opting out of something is a choice which has wider affects on a person's lifestyle

Ali, my point is just that everyone raises their children into their own belief system, even if that belief system is that their is no God.

But can you not see, imgonnaliveforever:

A RC person believes in Catholicism and raises their children as Catholics.

I am an atheist and am raising my child to be open, question, learn and ultimately to make up their own minds at any stage they like about what their view on religion is.

There is a huge difference.

I think Catholics do that too.

IGLF. It works more like this:

One person is a stamp collector. The other person is not; so they choose to use their spare time learning the violin. That does not mean that all people who do not collect stamps play the violin. Some play the piano instead, or some other instrument. Many people who collect stamps also play an instrument, but some are so obsessive about stamp collecting that they do not have any time or appreciation for music.

One person is religious. The other person is not; so they choose to use their spare time learning about moral particularism. That does not mean that all people who are not religious abide by moral particularism. Some believe in depth psychology instead, or some other moral system. Many people who are religious also have a secular moral system , but some are so obsessive about religion that they do not have any time or appreciation for secular morality.

Ali, I am Christian and also teach my children to question, learn, etc. And they can choose what to believe at any time. But in the meantime, their default teachings are Christian.

Surely that is the same with you Ali. You clearly don't like the word "religion" for whatever reason. But you do hold beliefs which affect your views and behaviour just like the beliefs of a religious person would.

Spero, when you give money to charity you do so because you think it's a good thing to do. When the religious give 10% of their income as tithes they do so because they are told that if they don't, they'll go to hell (or similar).

In other words, you're doing it from an ethical position, they're doing it because they're told to. Or something.

How interesting. I am agnostic I guess and have recently started going to church with DCs precisely so they have some sort of religious education/knowledge of ceremony and ritual, cultural understanding of a faith. I feel a bit embarrassed about going in truth as it's not what my friends would expect and I fully expect my DCs to think it's dull/rubbish etc when they're older. But if they didn't go they wouldn't know it wasn't for them, and maybe they will feel it's something they believe in. At least they'll have had that education.
My DD asked me yesterday what happens when you die which is of course something religions try to answer. I told her the truth - I don't know. I told her about heaven, reincarnation and a big sleep, burial and cremation, but said ultimately the person who died was OK, it's their family who are sad to miss them.
So although I am bringing my children up as christians, which to me simply means a person who does unto others as they would have done to them, I will also inform them of other faiths and encourage open mindedness and questions as they grow up.
It is possible to go to church and have an open mind and question what you are told. It is also possible not to go to church but live in a way that God would be happy about if he happens to be gazing down at you from his fluffy white cloud in outer space?!

Really? You teach your children that there may be more than one God, more than one truth? That your religion may not be the ultimate truth?

I come from an RC family and I don't see that at all. I see respect for other religions, yes, but the teachings are that that Catholicism is the truth.

I don't tell my children that I know the truth.

To suggest that because you choose not to bring your child up with a religion that they will be completely ignorant of religion(s) is daft. Most semi-intelligent non-religious households that have the ability to converse with one another about faiths, beliefs, religions in whatever shape or form they come in to enough of a degree for a child to decide whether they are interested or not. Even in a non-faith school children are educated and open to conversations and a variety of religions. My eldest often comes home with a variety of theological questions that I will gladly and openly answer. He has asked me if I believe in God and I have given an honest answer. I have asked him if he believes in God and he has told me he is unsure. That's fine for now for our family.
Many families, especially of my parent's generation went to church just because it was the 'done thing', or because their parents took them. It was pretty much taken at face value and many of the messages and meanings of the families religion were not really questioned. I think we are at an advantage now where we are more open to question, debate, discussion and as a result our children can approach the world with inquisitive and open minds.
I was brought up C of E but to me now, after giving birth to 3 children the concept of 'original sin' is abhorrent. Watching my beautiful babies play in the garden in the sunshine today in their state blissful innocence, for anyone to suggest they were somehow born with any sort of sin or impurity, and all of the other 'guilt' involved with many established religions is a burden I would rather they did not have right now.

Imgonna, your choice of 'exercise' to illustrate your point is an interesting one. You clearly describe exercise as a moral good - if one believes in heathy living one will live a happier and healthier life etc.

So you are still equating religion, as I see it, as something which enables one to make better choices in life. to be religious, in your view is the better 'lifestyle choice'.

I think this is missing the point massively on so many levels, I suspect we are not going to find common ground.

But all of you who are religious and feel worried that those of us who are not are somehow depriving our children of something important, can you agree with the following:

I don't think a single atheist/humanist poster has said here that we tell our children 'there is no god, so suck it up'. Instead, we are happy to discuss with our children what we do and don't believe and what others do and don't believe;

Making 'good' lifestyle choices is not the sole domain of the religious;
.
Once a child can read and write and go to school, a whole new world of information opens up to them. it is therefore not the parents' exclusive responsibility or obligation to inform their child about absolutely everything

They're taught about different religions at school. If they want to find out more then there are books & the internet.

Surely everyone raises their children in the context in which they live their own life? So if you go to church (or whatever) every week and live your life in a way which reflects your strongly-held religious values, then your child will grow up in that context.

If you call yourself x religion, but only go for weddings and funerals, they'll pick up on that.

If you don't do any religion or align yourself with a religion, they'll pick that up.

Whichever you do, you are showing them one pattern/choice in life, but that doesn't limit them to following that same choice, as they will soon realise that other families are different from theirs and will think about what that means for them.

Hopefully all good parents will want their child to feel able to make their own mind up - but they will all affect what their children feel is the "default" position, just by the way they live their own life, same as they do for any aspect of life.

You equally raise your children to feel that the default is to drink wine and have dinner parties, or to drink beer and go to Bingo, or to drink tea with every meal, just by the things they see day in day out.

Well said, Spero.

People are Atheist by default, it's called being a baby.

BTW, in my house growing up (I also have non-believing parents and GPs) I was taught it was important to be good. Not least because some people of faith thought that religion was the basis of good behaviour and we had to prove them wrong .

Its no good, these religious types have to equate atheism with religion because they don't understand what they see as a void. They have to make their choices the higher moral and their religion the best one, and they have to make a square peg fit a round hole.

Not all by any stretch, just the type who like here need everyone to have beliefs like them, unable to comprehend anything outside of their own reference.

Old St Mugg used to say....No religion is schools because the teachers dont believe.

More likely plenty of teachers teaching religion who are doubters.

Ali, my point is just that everyone raises their children into their own belief system, even if that belief system is that their is no God

I don't raise my child into my belief system. I teach him about ALL religions, just like he learns at school.

I never pray with him but he LOVES 'prayering' at his best friend's house before tea, he even asked the dad how he knows all the prayers and does he have a big book with them all in and does he pick one a day?