children can make their own mind up about religion when they grow up...

[AliGrylls]

Okay I have just read this on another thread but this is a statement I hear quite a lot and want to ask the question.

If all you teach your child is atheism how will they make their mind up about religion when they grow up because they have no religion other than atheism?

They will know nothing other than what you have taught them so they have nothing to make their mind up about - they will be atheist, by default. If people genuinely want their children to make their own mind up they have to provide them with a reasonable alternative (ie, Judaism / Christianity / Islam).

I don't actually know any adults who have been brought up atheist who have thought all of a sudden "I believe in God, I am going to go to Church".

Yes I say 'that's what some people believe' quite a lot, not "There is NO GOD get used to it"

I'm another one who doesn't understand how I am taking away the choice when the choice is plainly there in front of anyone, with people falling over themselves to help you take the decision to join their religion at a time of your own choosing.

Totally disagree op, I'm Pagan and if The Cub wants to be Pagan fine but if he wants to worship small purple unicorns at the bottom of the garden equally fine. Your original post supposed that people who will let their child make up their own mind will close off other avenues to explore. IME this is not the case.

KindOfHopesTheCubDoesNotBecomePaganAsIt'sToughTiggaxx

I kind of see what the OP is saying though. Without information there can be no informed choice.

Most of us will bring our children up to understand there are different points of view, and most of us will imply that those other points of view are not correct - regardless of whether we are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Atheist etc.

I was brought up in a loosley atheist household - my parents never discussed religion at all and we never went to any religious ceremonies except weddings and funerals. I went to a CofE primary where I learnt that being a christian was all about who got to hold the sheafs of wheat at the harvest festival assembly, and whether you should wear a hat in church or not. I had some orthodox jewish friends at senior school from whom i learnt that you had to be born jewish to be a "proper" jew, and that mostly it was all about going home early on a friday in winter and not eating anything that wasn't definitely Kosher. I now live in a mostly Muslim area and still know only a little about Islam - on the surface it seems to be about having a beard and a small white hat (if you're a man) or wearing a headscarf (if you're a woman).

I don't think any of this was real information about what people actually believe and why - and none of it allowed me to make my own choice.

As an adult i've become a christian, after becoming interested in why one of my friends was so different to everyone else, investigating, reading around a bit and considering what I thought the facts were 2000 years ago, based on the written evidence to hand. I've read some Dawkins, i've spoken in depth to a Hindu friend and i've learnt a little bit about Islam but would like to know more.

I really feel that my childhood did not allow me an informed choice, and i'd have liked to understand more about major world religions from people who are involved in those. I'd love to see vicars, imans, rabbis, etc going into secondary schools and explaining the basics to young adults who are emotionally mature enough to understand different people believe different things and because your parents think one thing does not make it right.

Very hard subject though - as a follower of Jesus I think the most important decision my son can ever take is whether he wants to follow Him or not - but it needs to be his decision. I hope I can gather enough friends of different faiths or no faith to explain their views to him and give him a real choice though.

I think this is a bit illogical. If a person thinks it is necessary for children to be given an introduction to religion so as to be able to exercise a genuine choice, then surely they need to be exposed to worship of the main religions.

If they are only given an introduction into one religion then how does that facilitate choice?

Most children in the UK with non-religious parents or ones who are actively athiest are exposed enough to christianity to give that as a "default" religion TBH. Or those who live in areas with a strong identity with another religion will have that as a "default".

I also don't think that organised religion and a spiritual belief have to be the same thing. Plenty of people who don't believe are into organised religion, plenty of people who have a sense of spirituality express it in ways that do not involve organised religion.

Haven't had a chance to read all the posts on this but I remember complaining bitterly about being "dragged to church" . My mum replied that this was all part of bringing me up and that when I was older I could make my own choices eg I could stop cleaning my teeth, stop eating healthily, take no exercise whatever etc. etc. at least I would have known the alternative. I stopped going at the earliest opportunity in my teens but found my own way back in my twenties.

So, I'm an atheist, I have no affiliation to any religion whatsoever. Am I supposed to pick a religion at random and go and worship something I don't believe in, and lie to my children about what I believe in, because this is somehow going to give them a more open mind and freedom to choose? This wouldn't just make me a total hypocrite? Hmmm which religion should I choose...

No, I'm sorry, I don't see that indoctrinating them in a belief system is going to give them more of an open mind. Are you telling me that someone bought up as a Catholic is more likely to become a Hindu than someone bought up in an atheist household?

They get taught plenty about Christianity at school, whether I like it or not, and actually I'm happy enough with that as I do see the cultural significance. Personally I talk to them about what I believe and what other people believe, and the importance of respecting what other people believe. I never tell them that what I believe is right, just that it is what I believe. I have friends who have strong Christian beliefs and if the children are interested I'd be happy to let them discuss it with them. They have cousins being bought up as Catholics who they are free to discuss things with. It's not like they are growing up in some kind of religious void and the idea of religion is going to come as some great shock to them later.

MichaelaS haven't you just proven the point that you can choose as you get older though, and that when you are interested you can find out about these things for yourself.

My parents are atheists but I did dabble in Christianity when I was a teenager. Their lack of belief didn't stop that from happening. I decided it wasn't for me, but I had a friend who did carry on with it (who also had atheist parents).

DH and I had this argument discussion yesterday. I want to raise the children with a religion and teach them about other religions and how/why they do things differently. DS really enjoys being part of a faith and has flourished in RE, and is open to other people's beliefs. DS recently announced he was going to join another faith after learning about it - he later changed his mind because he likes his current faith, he is only 7 though.

However, DH is an atheist and doesn't believe in religion, organised or otherwise (he brands it stupid - but thats a whole other debate). I however, feel that the children should be raised with some form of religious guiding but with access to the knowledge of other religions so that they can make more informed choices as they are older.

DH has also said that he would leave his opinions on religion until the children are older so that they can debate it properly (he's thinking mid teens). I personally want my children to be educated fully on diferent religions from an early age as I think it can help promote understanding and tolerance. I also think it is important that the children can experience being part of an organised religion. But that doesn't mean that atheist parents dont teach tolerance or understanding of others - I am sure they do, they just do so in a different way to myself.

noone is asking you to randomly pick a religion and go and worship in it nobodyimportant

I just agree with (my interpretation of) the OP that bringing your children up to believe in no god / gods is as limited as bringing them up to believe in a particular god / gods / whatever. It is still IMHO being indoctrinated into a belief system - just a belief that there are no gods.

Everyone seems to be saying the same thing though - that we are all happy for our children to learn about other viewpoints.

I never taught my children anything about religion, they learnt what they did at school.

My eldest is now 17, reads Atheist books, and listens to a lot of speakers online.

He made up his own mind, I detest parents who force religion on their children especially by fear.

If you don't behave you won't go to heaven crap.

"I don't think children should be brought up being taught about every single religion in the world as it could go on forever, they should just be taught an alternative to atheism." Why? What is the benefit to them? I understand the cultural impact - but, just as my children don't have to build square pyramids and sacrifice virgins to appreciate the cultural advances of the Aztecs, so they do not need teaching that God exists to appreciate the cultural impact of the Bible.

"For my children it is Christianity (they would have also had the option of Judaism because DH is Jewish by birth but he really doesn't care for religion)." Surely they would have a free choice of anything they fancied the sound of if you were really interested in them having "an alternative to atheism"? Why not Wicca? Graeco-Roman polytheism? Fairies?

I was never taught about alchol, astrology or judu at school or by my parents - I found these things/subjects/ passtime later in life and really enjoy having them in my life - it doesn't matter when you find anything, if it is there and is meant to be found you will find it.

No one knocked on my door offering these things either - I found them through reading in newspapers and online.

AliGrylls, yes you mentioned finding God in your post of 12.17. I'm not annoyed by your use of the phrase, as I think it is important to draw distinctions between experience of the supernatural, religious teaching and cultural aspects of religion.

I am not asking you to clarify your question because I have an issue with it, but instead because I am genuinely interested in the question.

I think it is worthwhile teaching children about the different religions for cultural reasons, but I don't think it is worthwhile teaching children much about more than one religion for reasons of making a choice.

If a child knows quite a bit about one religion, and is taught about different pathways within that religion, I see no point in replicating that process by involving them in others other than for cultural reasons. So if, for example, a child is taught about Christians from a Catholic, sacramental perspective, but also learns about evangelical Christianity and Gnostic Christianity, that has parallels in other religions. Mainstream Christianity is very spiritually and morally similar to types of Islam, and Gnostic Christianity is very spirituallly and morally similar to types of Buddhism. It is the cultural elements that differ.

I don't think there is any choice in supernatural experience; it either happens to you or it doesn't. The choices are between cultural elements of religion and cultural elements of secular society. Both atheists and religious people usually give their experience of both. The other choice is between religious and secular morality and values. Most religious people in the UK teach their children elements of both. As an atheist I only teach my children secular morality and values, because I don't think there is any particular value in religious ones unless you already belong to that religion.

So I can't really answer your question without you being a bit more specific about what you think children of atheist parents should be taught/be experiencing about religion.

Numerous Anthropologists and Philosophers have written about how religion is a construction devised to explain what humans don't understand and fear. Fear is an essential part of religious dogmas; it encourages one to be faithful and not to question your pursuance of faith.

As a child, you don't understand yourself and your place in the world; you learn and develop from what you are taught by those around you. If as a parent you wish for your child to be indoctrinated into a religion, then you are educating them that it is truth, not that it is belief. The subleties of belief versus truth can't be distinguished between unless you as parent acknowledge that other possibilities exist about how the world was created and how life is lived, and if you believe that those other interpretations are possible... then how can your chosen faith be the right one? and back round you go...

As for fear... I would speculate that it is potentially more natural and easy for a child to accept a particular religion, if they are repeatedly exposed or indoctrinated into it, because it's a much simpler explanation than scientific fact. Explaining death to a child in non-religious terms is more frightening than suggesting angels and heavens, and that then provides the hook to gain faith, as not believing is damnation and hell (Western Hebraic faiths).

So, by teaching atheism, you're taking a harder route... you explain all the different faiths, religion's place in the world and history and provide factual information that's difficult and potentially frightening to a child, but is ultimately truthful.

If you teach a faith that you have no belief in yourself, I suggest it's a cop-out and erm, well blasphemous.

OP, on the one hand you're saying that children should be able to make their mind up about religion when they're older, but on the other you seem to be saying that they should do that from a basis of already being raised with a Christian religious belief by default.

Surely the best default position, and one from which they really could pick a religion that suits them best, is to raise them with no religion? After all, being raised going to a Christian church isn't going to do much good if the child decides to follow Shinto or Wicca.

I don't agree with 'They will know nothing other than what you have taught them'. I would hope that most people, by the time they become adults, would have obtained some knowledge or made some observations other than what their parents had explicitly instructed them in!

Even non-religious schools teach about religions, I believe, and most people will encounter friends and schoolmates and later colleagues of different religions, there are plenty of opportunities to read (especially now we have the internet) about religious beliefs and practices. And if any of them particularly appeal to someone, they're free to learn more, go along to a place of worship if appropriate etc. I really can't see how anyone can grow up unaware of major religions, regardless of whether their parents take them to church or similar....

No one is saying parents should try to hide the existence of religions from their children anyway

Surely if there is a God, He (She?) will speak to the child to inform of their existence, after all isn't that how it's REALLY supposed to work? Or is God so ineffective, that he needs Man to act as an intermediary? Or am I being naive? Or is that a humanist viewpoint? Do I ask too many questions?

I'm not religious myself but I see no issue with people teaching their children their own religion and bringing them up accordingly.
Whats the difference in that and exposing children to say, the music you like or let them watch the films you think they would enjoy? Or any other aspect of your own or family culture?
I think it can provide a good moral framework and also satisfy a 'spiritual' need that (many) humans tend to have.

Obviously when children are old enough to make their own decision they will. But until they are old enough, everybody raises their children into their own religion, even if they don't realise it.

And Atheism counts as a religion just like all the others. If you believe there is no God then that will shape your attitude to other people, finances, relationships, etc (not saying atheists all have terribly immoral attitudes, just that life choices will be affected by not believing in God)

It is silly to criticise people for raising their children into their own religion, as we all do it. And why wouldn't we? If my child asks if it's ok to judge people based on their skin colour, I'm not going to answer "Well dear, some people think it's ok" I'm simply going to say "no it's not ok" because that's what I believe.

Obviously not comparing different religions to racism, just trying to show that if you strongly believe something then you will want to teach it to your children when they are young.

Actually Miflaw, yes I have introduced my DC's to several religions, and they have visited many places of worship, both with us and with friends who have different beliefs. Education and understanding gives them an opportunity to make an informed decision.

Atheism isn't a religion. The only thing that makes me an atheist is that I don't believe in God. There is nowt else to it.

Indeed. Atheism is a religion in the same way that not collecting stamps is a hobby.

imgonnaliveforever - please do tell which of my life choices have been 'affected' by not believing in God.

I don't kill, rob or otherwise hurt people because I think its wrong, not because God tells me not to. Similarly I try not to say hurtful things or cheat or lie, because I wouldn't want anyone to do that to me.

are you putting forward the sad old trope that humanists can't have any moral values because moral values can only come from God? I do hope not, because then I would have to think very uncharitable things about your general level of intelligence.

Ali, lots of religions don't believe in God. They might believe in "The Universe" or "life force".

An atheist makes choices based of the fact that they don't believe in God, even if they don't realise it.

Have you had sex outside marriage? If so, then it is because you believe that there is nothing wrong with it and there is no God out there who's telling you not to do it. If you were devout Christian/Jew/Muslim/etc you would not have sex outside marriage, so the fact that you're atheist affects your life decisions.

Do you give 10% of your money away to charity? If not, then it is because you do not belong to a religion which states that it is important to give away a proportion of your income.

There's no opt out. Whatever you believe - or don't believe - affects how you live your life.

imgonnaliveforever - also, I agree wholeheartedly with those who say I can't 'teach' my daugther atheism. Snorbs puts it very well. I might think collecting stamps is a big fat waste of time, but it that is what my daugther wanted to do with her spare time, it's up to her. As long as I don't have to join in and buy my own stamp album and bleat on about how stamps are great and anyone who doesn't collect stamps is living a sad and empty life.