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Original poster

children can make their own mind up about religion when they grow up...

814 replies

AliGrylls · 07/04/2011 12:05

Okay I have just read this on another thread but this is a statement I hear quite a lot and want to ask the question.

If all you teach your child is atheism how will they make their mind up about religion when they grow up because they have no religion other than atheism?

They will know nothing other than what you have taught them so they have nothing to make their mind up about - they will be atheist, by default. If people genuinely want their children to make their own mind up they have to provide them with a reasonable alternative (ie, Judaism / Christianity / Islam).

I don't actually know any adults who have been brought up atheist who have thought all of a sudden "I believe in God, I am going to go to Church".

OP posts:
SolarPanel · 14/04/2011 22:40

Can you disprove any of the quotes given by non-Christian historians on the site I gave you?

ChickensHaveNoEyebrows · 14/04/2011 22:42

Meh, mud slinging is pointless and achieves nothing. No one is going to have deeply held beliefs changed because of a thread on MN.

I liked the bit where I squashed the spider.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents · 14/04/2011 22:42

you can find plenty of evidence for anything at all on the internet if you look. I'm afraid you'll need something a little more academic (and a link would be nice too) if you want people to click.

SpringchickenGoldBrass · 14/04/2011 22:43

Can you prove that there isn't a farting pink unicorn with wings hovering over your computer?

ChickensHaveNoEyebrows · 14/04/2011 22:43

But Winter, the spider! The splatted spider that had evil done to it!

WinterOfOurDiscountTents · 14/04/2011 22:44

I'd forgotten about the poor spider! Have you done a penance young lady?

SolarPanel · 14/04/2011 22:47

OK - well here's Wikipedia which summaries all angles on the historicity of Jesus. It outlines the main views of academics (religious or not) who have looked into the historicity of Jesus in detail.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

I really don't think you can say there is no evidence for the existence of Jesus. Even the atheist specialists on this subject don't usually say that (a few do, but they're in the minority).

Snorbs · 14/04/2011 23:17

SolarPanel, that page you linked to about the historical records of Jesus is a good example of the issues.

Tacitus does refer to Christus but that's not a name, it's a description. Sure, the terms Christ and Jesus have become synonymous but that wasn't always the case. Anyone regarded as the returned messiah - and there is more than one possible candidate - would be liable to be called Christ.

Josephus's writings about Jesus are widely viewed with suspicion as there are some pretty strong suggestions that those references were inserted at a later date.

As for the rest of it, the bit about Thallus mentioning the sky going dark is so vague as to be meaningless, and Pliny The Younger's reference to Christians reciting that Christ is God proves nothing about the existence of Jesus as a man as he was writing in AD 106 and, again, runs into the problem that "Christ" does not necessarily equal Jesus.

Seraphion's reference to the Jews killing "their wise king" is a) very vague in connection to Jesus, and b) often regarded as referring to a time-frame some 30 or 40 years before Jesus was even born. Indeed, Seraphion's writings can be taken as evidence that there were more than one person around at that time who could be referred to as Christ.

DuelingFanjo · 14/04/2011 23:54

"Christianity is not a subset of Judaism. We don't celebrate any of the same festivals. The only similarity is the fact we both read the old testament - although in Judaism it is seen as the truth and in Christianity the new testament is seen as the truth."

so when did Christianity start?

Snorbs · 15/04/2011 00:07

Christianity is Judaism v2. Islam is Judaism v3 (although the Mormons might claim that their faith is the real Judaism v3). They all come from the same root, it just depends on which of the prophets you see as the important one - Abraham, Jesus or Mohammed (or Joseph Smith Jr.)

CoteDAzur · 15/04/2011 16:13

It is news to me that Christians don't consider Old Testament to be true Hmm

SolarPanel · 15/04/2011 17:34

CoteDAzur, the OT has to be taken in the context of the NT. Jesus came to tell us what we were getting wrong, so clearly we're not supposed to emulate all that happened in the OT.

stealthcat · 15/04/2011 17:49

Did Jesus come to tell non-Jews how they were getting it wrong? I thought that Jesus was jewish, and that it hadnt been his decision to try and expand the message to a wider audience?

exoticfruits · 15/04/2011 19:30

Even when I was back in primary school I was taught that the OT was man's interpretation at the time. No wonder people have a problem with it if they assume that church teaching says it is true!
I think that even a 5yr old might work out that the lions would eat the zebras on Noah's Ark !

CoteDAzur · 16/04/2011 08:46

" Jesus came to tell us what we were getting wrong, so clearly we're not supposed to emulate all that happened in the OT."

And then Mohammad came with Quran to tell you what you were getting wrong, yet you are still stuck at the NT Wink

CoteDAzur · 16/04/2011 08:49

" he lions would eat the zebras on Noah's Ark !"

Not if they are separated.

I'm surprised you problem is with Noah. I'd be more worried about Lot offering his virgin daughters to the army knocking on his door for gang rape. He is called a "righteous man" in OT Hmm

exoticfruits · 16/04/2011 08:57

CoteDAzure-you really need to let go of the OT! If you were living well over 2000yrs ago and didn't even know the world was round your explanations would be a bit ropey!
It must have been a huge ark to separate all the animals-what exactly did Noah take to feed them all for 6 weeks? I expect he had a couple of vets trained in exotic species too!!

Snorbs · 16/04/2011 10:44

I must've missed something somewhere.

Can anyone point me to the bit where Jesus said "You know the Torah? Well, Genesis isn't meant to be taken literally. Duh. It's a parable. The whole Noah and the Ark bit? Didn't happen. Jonah and the whale? You're having a laugh, aren't you? The lineage of King David is more or less accurate, but the rest is pretty much fable. Yeah, I know there's a lot smiting and fighting all the wa through but ignore those bits. Here, I've highlighted the bits that are true in green and the mythology in red. Oh, and have a look at Leviticus - I've scribbled out a load of those rules because they don't apply any more. HTH!"

CoteDAzur · 16/04/2011 12:29

"what exactly did Noah take to feed them all for 6 weeks?"

Some species that were on the Ark but didn't make it off, presumably.

LOL at your selective skepticism, by the way Grin You believe in some deity you have no proof of, not to mention ridiculous stories like impregnation by a ghost and virgin birth, but noooo, the Ark is just too incredible! Grin

WinterOfOurDiscountTents · 16/04/2011 12:44

Only half of Leviticus though, you can wear two kinds of cloth together, but keep the stuff about them nasty gays though. Hmm

exoticfruits · 16/04/2011 13:02

Jesus was living over 2000 years ago-do you not think that his interpretations would be a bit different to 21st century?!

I think this is a very good argument for not teaching any religion in schools but letting people explore it as adults if they wish. People on here seem to have got left with some very funny views, picked up when too young to understand, and write off all religions because they are stuck in some sort of timewarp of what they understood (or didn't understand)when little.
They then think that churches are peddling such nonsense-they are not.

WinterOfOurDiscountTents · 16/04/2011 13:23

I don't think that you know much about churches other than your own. You do realise that the current catholic teaching is that homosexuality is a sin?

You try and sound like an authority yet you are woefully uninformed.

exoticfruits · 16/04/2011 13:33

I know enough about the catholic church to know that it wouldn't suit me! No one is forcing me to go-or even asking me. Surely the whole point is that, if you are looking for a spiritual dimention, you search for something that suits you. I am thinking of exploring Quakerism-I know nothing about it but I can agree with a lot of their ideas.
My only point is that people search, or don't search, for themselves. DCs are not clones of you and they are entitled to make up their own mind.
Catholic churches suit those who like ritual-I disagree with practically everything in the catholic church but I wouldn't stop others.
One size doesn't fit all and never has done.
If people are trying to tell me that Noah crammed all the animals into one boat and they all got off the other end able to breed and populate the world, bearing in mind that the penguins had a long journey to arrive with Noah in the first place-you can count me out!!

WinterOfOurDiscountTents · 16/04/2011 13:42

thats all very nice but what does it have to do with your assertions as to what churches are peddling...when you obviously don't know?

exoticfruits · 16/04/2011 13:51

I don't know-but I can find out if I wish. I may try the Quakers and find out that it is not for me. I won't try Catholics-I know it isn't.
I have the freedom to find out or I have the freedom to not find out or I have the freedom to become an atheist. My parents had the same freedom and my DCs have it. I don't see why we all have to agree!
I just get a bit irritated with the idea that the OT is true. Someone's understanding of a tsunami is going to differ depending on whether they are living in 2011AD or 2011BC. The idea that anyone should take early man's interpretations of events is laughable-had they had the benefit of computers etc I dare say they would have interpreted it differently!
Noah didn't know the south pole existed-he didn't know about penguins!