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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to simply not understand how you are supposed to maintain a job when children are so frequently unable to attend childcare due to common illnesses?

144 replies

working9while5 · 31/03/2011 13:58

Ds is only 16 months. He has been in nursery since November. I work a five day fortnight but pay for six days childcare so have (at least) some flexibility so that I can work additional days if I miss one due to him being ill.

Dh and I split the time off equally - he does a day, I do a day, sometimes if we both urgently need to be in work, we split the day into morning/afternoon.

However, it's a real struggle right now. Ds has been ill on and off since starting nursery to the extent we are both missing at least a day a week (bearing in mind that I don't work five days a fortnight - so he is ill more than this and/or on the "wrong" days etc).

I really feel work is suffering but I don't know what we're supposed to do. I really can't miss much more time as it is affecting key work outcomes which may jeapordise renewal of my working contract (quite a bit of my time is fixed term contract). Dh has a number of issues at work which mean his job is also at risk.

We have no alternatives as we are new to our area and have no friends or family who can help out.

What do people do? I have only one child and he has no long-lasting or ongoing disabilities that we are aware of. How do people cope when they have more children and/or more serious ongoing things to schedule? I just don't see how you can do it over an extended period of time and keep a job?

Does someone out there have the answer?

OP posts:
working9while5 · 31/03/2011 18:38

"I am not saying you do not love your child Working, but I do have to say that from reading all of your responses you do sound a little bit distant."

Shock

You are kidding, right?

I write in a formal, academic way because of years of training to write in a formal, academic way. It is very, very silly of you to even begin to presume how anyone feels about their child based on the style of writing they use on a forum. Really? You really think that because it's possible for me to speak objectively about my life, the world, society etc this indicates my level of love for my child?

Incidentally, your comment is hugely passive-aggressive because actually, you are saying I don't love my child (not in so many words, mind).

I want to get angry about this, but I can't. It's the most ludicrous thing I've ever read on MN!

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shaz298 · 31/03/2011 18:44

By starting the thread you asked for opinions and i gave mine. Get angry all you like.

I am not saying you don't love your child, I AM saying that by WHAT you write (not by your style of writing) that you are talking very objectively about the one thing in your life for which I BELIEVE you should be most subjective.

So in short to answer your initial post, YABU. You are a parent in in 2 parent family. Work it out between you. Your child's ill health is not the responsibility of others.

princessparty · 31/03/2011 18:52

' you can get emergency leave but is a max of 24 hours to rearrange child care, '

where have you got that from AFAIK there is no ceiling?

working9while5 · 31/03/2011 18:54

I think you are projecting because your child was very, very poorly. I am very sorry that you had this experience. I am not talking about my child being very ill. I am talking about my boy wandering about the place, happy as larry, playing with his cars and trains with a gunky eye or with a temperature which is not really the same thing. I am also concerned for our family's financial security, given that I only work 2.5 days a week term time only and that both my job and my husband's are at risk. I would feel that I had done my little boy a far greater disservice if I put us at risk of poverty or in a position where we couldn't afford for him to go and visit his grandparents and family in Ireland than by leaving him with an appropriately qualified professional when he is not really ill. I'm sorry that you feel the need to comment on another parent's love for their child because of your own experiences: it is quite an angry, sad thing to do.

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working9while5 · 31/03/2011 19:00

Also, read my OP again:

"What do people do? I have only one child and he has no long-lasting or ongoing disabilities that we are aware of. How do people cope when they have more children and/or more serious ongoing things to schedule? I just don't see how you can do it over an extended period of time and keep a job?

Does someone out there have the answer?"

I am keenly aware that many parents have to work around this for longer periods of time in much more difficult circumstanes and it is very, very tough. I don't think the answer in a just society is that people who have very ill or disabled children are put at risk of poverty (which research tells us is far more likely to happen to families where children are disabled).

If employers can take a balanced and flexible approach to enabling families to work when children are ill, it is better for women, men and all children, not just those who are seriously ill or disabled. I started the thread to discuss the issues around keeping employment when you have to manage childcare and this is what's under discussion, not my love for my child. As such, the focus of the writing is not on my feelings about my leaving my child as that is not what the thread is about.

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MissMontoya · 31/03/2011 19:03

It's a nightmare.

I had a rudely healthy first child and between me and my husband we only ever took a day or two off to be with our DS because he was sick.

Then we had DD who, although perfectly healthy now, suffered from major ear infections, flu and then swine flu in her first year of life. I had to take so much time off (as did DH). We had my mum down the road to share the 'burden', too, and my work was very understanding (DH is self employed)...and it was still a huge struggle.

What can you do? Bottom line is I would lose my job rather than not be with my child when she needs me.

working9while5 · 31/03/2011 19:03

that should read "not just those with minor illnesses, but also those who are seriously ill or disabled."

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stealthcat · 31/03/2011 19:05

It does sound like your DS is catching every bug going round the nursery. Hopefully now that he has been there for a few months he will have more immunity and not be ill as much. I dont think that the amount of time that you are having to take off is typical, so hopefully it wont stay this way.

HumanBehaviour · 31/03/2011 19:07

Kids normally get ill when the start nurser as the come in contact with a lot of new bugs. He will get more resistant to the bugs there and wont be sick as much after a while.

MissMontoya · 31/03/2011 19:07

Agree with stealthcat.

My DD rarely has a day off nowadays. I think they get over the 'catch everything going' stage, mostly (although that excludes nits Grin).

Mind you, my DS has SEN and that has brought a whole other 'reasons to miss work' nightmare with it...

jamaisjedors · 31/03/2011 19:15

Well aren't you just great shaz.

What's wrong with this thread that so many people are popping up with sticks to beat working MOTHERS (not the Dads, as other posters have pointed out)?

To the OP, I was aghast at my friends having to take so much time off work when their (perfectly fine) daughter was still having slightly runny nappies after a 24hr bug. Nursery wouldn't take her back like that - I'm fairly sure a childminder WOULD - 4 days after the last vomit.

We have been very lucky with an amazing childminder who will always look after our DS when they are sick - and NO they are not crying for mummy, in fact they often beg to go to hers.

(but I suppose I'll be told it's because I'm a nasty working parent who doesn't love her children so they get it where they can and oh isn't it dreadful that they have someone else who loves them too in their life).

I forgot to tell the childminder she's a stranger - perhaps she shouldn't have invited us to her daughter's wedding seeing as we are just strangers.

working9while5 · 31/03/2011 19:15

And how do you manage MissMontoya?

The NHS is so inflexible e.g. "ooh the parents didn't want to come on a Thursday am at 9am, they can wait now for their appointment". It must be horrendous when you have lots and lots of appointments, let alone all the other stuff re: fighting for your child's rights etc.

One of my good friends has a 19 year old with severe learning difficulties and she thinks she may be in the position of having to give up work now because his work placement finishes at a time she can't manage with work.

I don't think I had the vaguest clue before I had ds that the system is so stacked against all parents, or really - if I'm honest - just how unreasonable we can be with appointments etc. I don't work in clinic now but I know my manager was hugely inflexible about parents saying they couldn't make appointments... and she had four kids!

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kittybuttoon · 31/03/2011 19:31

Working, I do find it a little difficult to pick the facts out of your 'academic' prose style, but do I have it right - you work a five-day fortnight, term time only?

And you still think your employers aren't flexible enough?

I gave you a link to a site which gives information about your right to unpaid parental leave, and that still doesn't satisfy you. Nothing satisfies you. Everything anyone else suggests is not adequate for you. I bet you are a real laugh on the odd occasions you manage to struggle into work between pontifications and faux concern for society in general.

You don't want much out of life, do you - apart from to waste people's time trying to get your convoluted ideas over to them.

Not interested in you any longer - am hiding thread.

working9while5 · 31/03/2011 19:38

Wow, that's a bit spiteful and uncalled for! I don't really see the point in posting to tell someone you are hiding their thread.

I was aiming to have a general chat about this aspect of parenting which I'm finding a bit tough right now, but hey, just fling a bit of abuse around and scuttle off, why don't you. Anyone who uses the word "faux" in a sentence really hasn't much room for calling someone else's style convoluted.

OP posts:
shaz298 · 31/03/2011 19:42

Jamais I don't understand what your comment about me means??? I do not think that working mothers or fathers don't love their children. I did not at any point say that! I didn't imply that I was great, but now you mention it! Only kidding. Grin

I think it's great that parents (either sex) can go to work but I do believe that when you choose to have children you need to consider what happens when your children are unwell and how you will manage that. Small children are renowned for being unwell.

Working - Yes I am angry, not about my situation though. I have made my peace there and have the most wonderful, happy little boy ( albeit somewhat complicated). In some respects I am grateful that I have had the opportunity to be a SAHM which I wouldn't have had, had he been born perfectly healthy. I would rather be a working mum and him be healthy though but that's not what was meant for us. But do agreew with MissMontoya that in that positon I'd rather loose my job than not be with my little boy when he needs me.

Re the anger - you're right. I do get angry when other people's shortsightedness results in my (or anyone else's) little one needlessly ending up in hospital. Your child doesn't have to be REALLY ILL in order to make another child very ill. The riules and guidelines are there for a reason - to protect everyone.

I am sorry that you are in a difficult place right now.I hope that your little one builds up a good immunity soon. And if he doesn't I hope that you are able to work something out.

working9while5 · 31/03/2011 19:45

I suppose I just thought I'd covered my bases by reducing my hours and paying for the extra days childcare.. it was silly and naive and something only a first-time mum would do.. but I had this notion that if we took the days in turn and I could work some extra days that we would manage as really, I don't work a lot. I suppose I thought because my working arrangements were so flexible that would cover it.. but because they're flexible it actually means that it's really unacceptable to be taking additional time off.. but I can't afford unpaid or a nanny and I guess that's a shock. We are just worried about our jobs when all is said and done.

I wouldn't send him in ill, though... I promise! I nearly killed dh for suggesting he go to nursery with a temperature!

OP posts:
AnnieLobeseder · 31/03/2011 19:55

Only on MN could this perfectly reasonable post turn into a WOHM-bashing thread. Hmm

Nice.

shaz298 · 31/03/2011 20:08

Working - now you sound like a mum Grin. Hope it get's sorted.

toeragsnotriches · 31/03/2011 20:18

I got really sarcastic comments from my female line manager when DS1 kept getting sick when I was at work. Like 'Oh, isn't being a teacher isn't child friendly enough for you already?' Well, no actually, not when they're pre school age. I couldn't just up and move double Y10 Thursday afternoon to my front room (the mind boggles.)

MissMontoya · 31/03/2011 20:23

How do I manage? Hmm. Well, big sacrifices, firstly. I gave up my glorious career to work with SEN children because it offered term time only working and shorter hours. I couldn't keep up with my old job, even with a full-time nanny. The stress and guilt when my DD was ill and then when my DS's problems got really servere...it was all just too much to juggle with a managerial position in a 'dynamic' industry like my old sector.

I don't know if I do manage, to be brutally honest. I got glandular fever followed by pneumonia two years ago when we were fighting to get DS a statement Sad. It was honestly one of the most stressful periods of my life.

We are more settled now and I don't have to take too much time off (have only missed a day off this year so far because of the kids) but the fear of it all 'kicking off' again lurks. I suffer from terrible headaches and grind my teeth so badly at night that I have dislocated my jaw Sad.

MissMontoya · 31/03/2011 20:25

Suffice to say I keep most of my stress completely hiddne from work. I honestly never play the 'I've got kids' card or pull sickies EVER because I am all too aware that I could REALLY need to take time off because of my children again at some point in the future....

pingu2209 · 31/03/2011 20:57

I know the answer to this question.

The law offers only 1 area of protection: Time Off For Dependents. The wording of the law is grey. Employees are allowed 'reasonable' unpaid time off for dependents in an emergency situation that could not be foreseen.

The definition of 'reasonable' is the grey area. ACAS have written a booklet for employers and employees, which states reasonable to be 24 hours - basically enough time for you to arrange alternative care - be that for an elderly parent, spouse or child. This booklet specifically uses chicken pox as the example, saying Time Off For Dependents would only cover the first 24 hours if a child has chicken pox. After that the employee would be expected to come back into work because during that 24 hours they would set up emergency childcare if their usual childcare arrangements break down.

Interestingly, ACAS do not offer advice on what emergency childcare an employee should use. There are emergency nanny agencies that you can register with for free and they send a nanny out very quickly but you pay at least £15/hour. I am unsure if the nanny will look after children with an infectious disease anyway!

The employment tribunal 'courts' use the ACAS booklet for guidance.

An additional grey area is the fact it must not be reasonably foreseen. The precedent for this was decided in the case where a woman took her employer to court for unfair dismissal, where the employer had fired the woman for taking too much time off to care for her son (primary school age). Her son was disabled/long term sick and the woman had taken off about 16 days over a period of a year. She felt Time Off For Dependents would protect her, however, because it was foreseeable that her disabled/ill son would be ill on and off her situation did not fall under Time Off For Dependents.

In terms of deciding what is 'reasonable' the tribunal also considers whether you are a single parent or joint parent. If you are a single parent the tribunal/court is more lenient in whether the amount of time you have off falls under Time Off For Dependents. So if you are a mum who is fired/put under pressure by an employer for having taken, say 10 days off at no notice due to your child being ill, the court may say that is 'reasonable' if you are a single parent. However, if you are a couple, the court is far more likley to say it is 'unreasonable' as your husband should have shared the burden equally.

This is not really looking at the reality of most couples I know, where the husband earns far more than the wife and it is his career that will keep the family afloat. Perhaps the husband is full time and the wife part time. Therefore, if the child is ill the wife takes the time off, not the husband. However, if it came to tribunal, the presiding view is that children's sickness should be shared equally no matter what the salary of each parent.

Many many companys offer far more than the 24 hours, I know that the NHS offer 5 days paid leave (on top of holiday) for emergency care for dependents. Then a further 3 months unpaid after that, should you need it.

Alternatively, there is also Parental Leave. This is about 6 weeks unpaid leave per parent per child under 6 (18 if registered disabled). These 6 weeks of Parental Leave are for the life of the child, not per year! However, you need to apply for parental leave and have it agreed by your employer before taking it. Applications have to be at least 1 week in advance and taken in weekly slots (not days). This may be good if your child is having an operation that you know about in advance and you need to care for the child afterwards.

Finally, of course, you have your holiday that you can use to care for your child. However, many companies have a strict holiday policy whereby holiday has to be booked and agreed at least 2 weeks in advance.

You may wonder how I know all this?

My company decided I was taking too much of my holiday to look after my dc when they were ill. Over a period of 8 months I had taken 9 days holiday (with no notice other than a quick phone call at 7.30 to my boss to say dc is ill I can't come in, can I take it as holiday?) They said that I could no longer take holiday with no notice and had to take Time Off For Dependents. My employer said that I was allowed a maximum of 24 hours to sort out alternative childcare. In writing, I was told that if I received a phone call from the nursery at 2pm I could leave and take unpaid leave, but I was still expected back into work at 9am the next day. If I was not back in work disciplinary action would be taken.

Fortunately for me, although ACAS guidance is 24 hours, the law states 'reasonable'. In addition, their staff handbook also stated 'reasonable'. I took them to tribunal for sexual discrimination and victimisation as they had not put the 24 hour rule on any other member of staff (of which there were over 10,000).

They settled 1 week before the date for the tribunal. I was relieved as I was not sure I would win at all. I think the publicity was their main concern.

At the time, no employee had won against an employer using the Time Off For Dependents protection. My personal opinion is that is is a crap benefit for employees. How the hell can you find alternative childcare for your dc if they are ill?

My advice to anyone is to work more than their hours. It is hard when you have to get back to nursery/child minder by a specific time. But if your contracted hours are 9-5 but you can get there slightly early or leave a bit later (even if only 10 mins either side), the employer tends to be far more flexible when you phone last minute saying you can't come in because your dc is ill - even if you are taking your holiday or unpaid.

I am not a stay at home mum.

foxinsocks · 31/03/2011 21:03

I think you've got a point shaz.

But I have to say, I had no idea this is what would hit me when I had dcs. For some reason, I just didn't have a clue that they would get this ill that often. Both dd and ds were constantly in hospital in the first couple of years (finally fully discharged from consultant care when both were 3) but I went back to work full time as did dh and dd was in a nursery which basically she was out more than she was in!

Once we got a nanny and rejigged everything, it works much better but I must say, we had to go through a dark tunnel to get there. I work in a long hours job with a lot of responsibility. But the hours I work don't mean I love my children any less Wink.

But to say, this is what you should expect. I really didn't expect it at all. Didn't think I would get dcs with health problems that required lots of hospital trips. Hadn't even heard of winter vomiting bugs and didn't anticipate we would get them twice a year for a few years in a row Grin. I think it's perfectly normal that you wouldn't necessarily anticipate all of that!

shaz298 · 31/03/2011 21:11

Foxinsocks: Sorry you had to go through that. I wasn't expecting to spend the best part of 3 years ( in total - not over the period of) in hospital with my little boy either. I wouldn't expect anyone to expect that. However you dealt with it in a way which was right for your family as I did in the way which was right for mine. I still can't really go to work due to surgeries, appopintments and unexpected illness. But I chose not to retunr to work as I knew that my credibility would suffer if I was continually needing time off. And I knew it would be a lot of time. Work wouldn't and still isn't sustainable for me. Hubby works though, but not in a fabby job as we chose for him to work in a job where he doesn't need to work long hours and so can send time with our little one.

I would, however, expect parents to expect recurrent D & V bugs, colds, etc etc. and to plan accordingly for that. That's just me though.

As for the emergency nanny, I know that's necessary for some people but for me I couldn't bring myself to leave DS with a complete stranger, regardless of their alledged good character, experience and qualifications........I'd be terrified.

working9while5 · 31/03/2011 21:12

Pingu, that's really helpful... even if it's a bit scary!

I can't take holidays in term time (even though I am not paid for holidays and am still entitled to holiday) so it's basically swapping days as I'm doing at the moment, which only works because I have 5 day fortnight with 6 days childcare (which I can't really afford but put in to allow flexibility). It will come a cropper soon though if he has another week off, because I am running out of opportunities to work up extra.. they will allow me swap days but not accrue "overtime" per se. I am not using my Carer's Leave (pro rata, NHS, 2.5 days) in case he gets chicken pox but I didn't realise there was extra unpaid I could take so that's good to know.. they can't get rid of me! It still doesn't answer the question of what it does to my work though. I feel so guilty about work, then about home.

It just seems crazy.. he isn't very poorly, he's just a little kid.. I honestly don't know how people cope when they have the stress of ongoing illness and disability as well as all of this scheduling. That's disgusting about the "foreseen" element of Time Off for Dependents. The mind boggles. The effects that MissMontoya speaks about are just outrageous. I guess
feminism's work isn't really done, is it?

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