to simply not understand how you are supposed to maintain a job when children are so frequently unable to attend childcare due to common illnesses?

[working9while5]

Ds is only 16 months. He has been in nursery since November. I work a five day fortnight but pay for six days childcare so have (at least) some flexibility so that I can work additional days if I miss one due to him being ill.

Dh and I split the time off equally - he does a day, I do a day, sometimes if we both urgently need to be in work, we split the day into morning/afternoon.

However, it's a real struggle right now. Ds has been ill on and off since starting nursery to the extent we are both missing at least a day a week (bearing in mind that I don't work five days a fortnight - so he is ill more than this and/or on the "wrong" days etc).

I really feel work is suffering but I don't know what we're supposed to do. I really can't miss much more time as it is affecting key work outcomes which may jeapordise renewal of my working contract (quite a bit of my time is fixed term contract). Dh has a number of issues at work which mean his job is also at risk.

We have no alternatives as we are new to our area and have no friends or family who can help out.

What do people do? I have only one child and he has no long-lasting or ongoing disabilities that we are aware of. How do people cope when they have more children and/or more serious ongoing things to schedule? I just don't see how you can do it over an extended period of time and keep a job?

Does someone out there have the answer?

regarding parental leave strictly speaking you can only have it in 1 week blocks not odd days you need to apply for it, but you dont necessarily get it then employer can quite legally postpone it for uptp 6 months not much use if sick today, you can get emergency leave but is a max of 24 hours to rearrange child care, when snow closed several schools in december in private sector most parents would have only been given a few hours grace to sort childcare, OP does have a dilemma because private sector or as she is contracted out to NHS are not sympathetic

on the other hand if you had taken day off work to take your child to out patients at hospital and had waited 12 weeks for the appointment and then when you were halfway there, they rang and cancelled it as doctor was a home with her sick child, I doubt there would be much sympathy just moaning about cancelled appointment loss of days holiday etc for some people taking days off for minor childhood illnesses ( too ill to be at nursery/ school but not seriuosly ill so need emergency care) is a real threat to employment and therefore the whole families security and in case of example above massive inconvience to perhaps 30 people, when I was working in NHS if I was off sick myself itwas 30-40patients to rearrange at shortnotice and people are not sympathetic even when I had chickenpox as an adult and was off 3 weeks it generated about 7 written complaniants ( and far more verbal) as to why i could not work so I lose both ways if I worked and they caught it my fault if stay at home they blame me too for being sick

so you need about 4 plans

plan a nursery
plan b emergency childminder/ grandparent close by who has no other child so can't pass germs on
plan c another friend without kids in case b is sick on holiday or too far away
plan d take day off yourself or emergency nanny

purepurple - why be a parent? That's crazy.
a) I love my children but no 1 priority is to provide for them not coddle them when sick
b) life circumstances change, I didn't set out to be a single parent.

We can only do our best with the situation we're in.

Kittybuttoon, she gets about £8K a year. For this, she is expected to take on a lot of responsibility for taking care of SEN students and actually differentiating their work that teaching colleagues on salaries that are 5, 6 times as much as hers and who have a legal obligation to provide an inclusive education blithely ignore. I think LSA's are treated abominably in many schools and quite frankly, when the system expects them to take on responsibilities that their colleagues on higher salaries shirk, I have limited sympathy for the rights of those employers. I can't go into any more detail, but I do feel there was abuse of her status in issuing a written warning. LSA's are notoriously underconfident in standing up to abuse of their position in schools because of fear of being let go. It is an abuse of those at the bottom of the system, without whom the school could not function, while others take money for a job they are not doing as they should. If LSA's weren't put into a position where, essentially, they provide the education for some of the most vulnerable students with limited training, perhaps their employers wouldn't suffer as much when the worker took time off. There should be a back up in place: hey, maybe the class

Should someone on a low wage with no viable alternatives be expected to come to work when their child is ill? Where does the child go, if the alternative is emergency nanny care at £16 an hour? When her partner works on a building site and won't be given work if he doesn't show up? When that could mean they don't meet their rent and are evicted from their home? Caring for your child isn't a leisure activity, it's a necessity and employers who can't treat their staff with the respect and dignity of realising they are human with commitments outside of work sometimes deserve what they get.

I'm a professional, so is dh. At least we have the money to have options. Not everyone has this luxury.

I love the assumption that everyone has parents/pils that are 1 - nearby, 2 - fit and able or 3- Don't work.

working9while5, tending to your child when they are ill is a big part of being a parent
I don't think it's fair to blame nurseries or childminders for the society that we have created where we are all on a hamster's wheel and can't get off.
I think it is a very sad indictment on society that the needs of children are way down the list.
Children in the UK are amongst the most unhappiest in the world. When questioned, all children really want is to spend more time with their parents.

You have the legal right to take time off for domestic emergencies such as child's illness until you can arrange alternative childcare.

Yes, Sarahtigh, have been in same position: I got ++ irritation from manager when I inconveniently was landed in hospital for two weeks with an illness and was told there would be no grace to make up workload when I was back, meaning I went back too early, caseload demands were increased when I was too unwell to deal with them, which created no end of hassle and resulted in me having to get the unionand Occ Health involved as I was concerned for patient safety. This whole incident resulted in me being denied an interview for a promotion where it was clearly stated that my "inability" to meet caseload demands over the six month period I was ill was the reason I couldn't be considered. Yet, lo and behold, as there were no other applicants the position disappeared and I was expected to work at that level but with no extra pay!

It's really inhumane. I chose work in schools because it is marginally better, but there are implications to me being off - the service is under pressure and clients have specific requirements in terms of what they receive that are legally outlined in their statements that aren't met if I'm not there. I am also involved in training staff at NVQ3 level and they freak if I'm not in to mark their coursework.

It's easy to talk about kids wanting to be with mum if they're ill, but the family security, as you say, takes precedence.

Those of you who are trumpeting the rights of parents to take time off when their DCs are ill - I hope you will be similarly understanding when your child's teacher, or your GP, or ambulance driver, or MP isn't where you expect them to be, because they've taken time off with their ill child?

Purepurple: your view is simplistic. We live in the society we live in. I have duties to my clients, who are other people's kids, and this contributes to their happiness. A child who has no way of communicating with his parents or his peers and who is constantly in trouble because he can't understand what's said to him isn't often all that happy: not all of the woes of the world are solved by having mum about. (Sidenote: where's dad in what you write, again?).

There was a time when kids were at home with mum, end of story. And in that time, the children I work with were ignored or institutionalised and were seen as a source of stigma and shame. Unfortunately, there is still much work to be done to have them fully included in society. There is a drastic shortage of professionals in my area of work. I could just be at home providing round the clock care to my son and no doubt he would not be ill as frequently, but there would be children who wouldn't receive any help when they need it. As it is, the system is shockingly inadequate to meet their needs. My profession is 90% female.. so you know, there are a lot of mums doing my job. And frequently, when we go on maternity leave/are off ill etc, kids suffer.

My child is my child and I love him with all my heart, but I am at work for 37.5 hours a fortnight. For the other 298.5 hours, I am with him. But for those 37.5 hours, I earn a wage that keeps him clothed and fed and in a home and affords us security as well as contributing to the childhood of other people's kids.

It's so easy to be holier than thou about other people's choices, or to assume that people prioritise their work out of "selfishness" or that it makes them better or worse as parents, but the reality is a lot more complex than in your account.

I have had 2 ds' in nursery, ds1 is now at school and cm. It does get better as their immune system strengthens, but I have been gultiy of dosing them up with calpol and sending them in. With conjunctivius, our nursery would always take them if they were having the drops, you can buy these over the counter now , so we always have some in. It is difficult, we have no family locally and friends dont really want sick children, so we do the same as you and share time off work. Ds2 has just had chicken pox, which meant a week off, but hopefully we will be healthy for a while. ( of course, Ive just jinxed that!!)

working9while5, you seem to have read a lot into my short posts. I don't recall saying that children should be at home with their parents all the time. Obviously people need to work but people should expect children to be ill and should have contigency plans in place.
"Sidenote: where's dad in what you write, again?" I don't get this point at all. I have referred to parents not mums

Working9while5a your friend, whilst poor and optionless, is still a liar.

Obviously you know about her personal circumstances and feel sorry for her, and that's to your credit.

I don't know her. I do, however, know other people who can't get paid work because people like her are taking up roles, not bothering to show up for them, expecting to get paid for not turning up, and lying about their circumstances to carry on getting paid. People like your mate are being dishonest and selfish.

Personally I wouldn't want my child's TA to be like that. But good for you for sticking up for her, despite her obvious faults. That's nice.

My dd (now 11) has never been ill much and dp and I do the same as you do alternating who looks after her between us. Dp can sometimes work from home. Sometimes my mum has sat for us for half a day which is really fortunate.

My thought is that some childcare settings are far worse than others for the number of illnesses a child has. I think that nurseries are a lot worse than CMs in this respect - more kids to pass more stuff around to. I have heard that nurseries are actually good for this reason in that they build your child's immune system better due to higher exposure to bugs - but I am not personally convinced on that score.

I think one of the things parents value most from their employer is flexibility so that you can make the hours up another time or work from home or take unpaid leave. Certainly my employer is quite good like this as is dps and I would find it much more difficult to work without this flexibility.

She's not my friend, she's someone I work with who I see as being incredibly hardworking and dedicated above and beyond the call of duty in a very consistent way. She simply has had to take a few days off with a very ill child. That's not the same as having a hangover, in my eyes. As a parent, if my son required an LSA I don't think I would necessarily want to think that they would put work ahead of their own child in those circumstances: it would make me question their character. It's not the same as a professional role and I think it does reflect an abdication of responsibility on the part of the professionals involved to be so harsh that she misses a few days work when they don't fulfil their statutory obligations on an ongoing basis.. but anyway..

Purepurple, I don't think I read anything into what you wrote. I responded to what you wrote. I confused one aspect of your post with another poster as I misread it as saying mum (sorry), but having re-read what you did write, I was responding to your comments about our society not valuing childhood/childhood happiness and how it's not fair to blame childminders/nurseries for how we live. However, I don't get what you say. If your contingency plan isn't paid childcare and you don't have family or friends who meet the bill, what are you expected to do? What is the contingency plan, then? That's my question in all of this, really.

The only way is to get a nanny. I switched for these very reasons.

Our DD was hardly at nursery when she was little. In fact, she still gets ill now at 5 years old with ear infections.

What is the contingency plan? That is the question. It hasn't really been thought through, has it, all this both parents work and children to go full time childcare way of life?
The pressures on parents today, and therefore on children too, are almost too much to bear. Which is why something has to give. Employers must be more flexible and understanding. But, money always seems to be more important. I am in the middle of writing a 3,500 word on attachment theory so may be being simplistic, but I am looking at family life and what should happen in an ideal world.

manicinsomniac
'poopnscoop, I know you're not allowed. It's the system I disagree with, not the childminders themselves.

I don't use a childminder because my children are at the independent school where I teach so I can leave them in the sick bay.

What I don't understand is that childminding and many nurseries are fee paying just like an independent school. If you pay for it you should be entitled to care even if the child is sick. It would just need to be organised properly.'

Thanks for clarifying that you do understand it, it's the system. So, how do you propose we change this system then?

How can a CM properly organise looking after a sick child (who very often needs constant monitoring, might be literally clinging to you in pain), and still feed, do activities, school runs etc. with the others in her care? CMs are only one person.

Something that is VITALLY important for parents is to have emergency contacts, 1, 2 or even 3. For the CM to call in case he/she cannot get a hold of mum/dad.

working9while5
'I really wish that CM's wouldn't use lines about what children "want" in this situation. It's playing into maternal guilt, when really what's at fault is inflexible employment practices.

Not sure what the weather has to do with it either!'

I am not using a 'line'. I am repeating what the children in my care have said to me, when they're upset, crying, really unwell.

And I am talking about really unwell kids here by the way. I bring down temperatures naturally very successfully, and only call parents if I am really worried that the child needs to see the doctor. I will NOT mess around with a child's health (life!?) because it 'might' be inconvenient for a parent/s. In the 4 years I have been minding I can count on one hand the times I have called a parent to fetch their child too... so it's hardly worth getting upset about in my instance.

The weather... well, I thought this would be obvious..? That being in icy cold/wet weather isn't good for a child (even an adult) who is feverish and very unwell. And if you have a CM who does school runs... many walk to and fro the school. What if the very sick child cannot walk? What happens to the child at school? Too many risks. The sick child needs to be at home.

And what is your answer to your own question so far, pure? Ds obviously has relatively limited childcare at 5 days a fortnight, but it's still feeling pretty unworkable. In Ireland, where I'm from, far more mums go back at the 6 month mark and go back f/t but there tends to be a lot more family support with many having access to grandparent care etc.

I don't think that you can roll back to a time when one parent didn't work for many reasons. I personally feel a certain moral obligation to work, although I don't do much of it. The NHS paid for my degree as a mature student, my job is specialist and I am not easily replaced, that has an impact on other people etc. If all I had to consider were theories of attachment, maybe dh and I could have both reduced to one wage and split our work.. but financially, we would have struggled and it's just not feasible for the workforce to consist of only 50% of the parent population.

As an adult, I have learned that money is sometimes quite important really, not just "seeming" to be. I think it's the easy option in analysing this to assume it's about consumerism/materialism. We live in a 2-bed ex-council house in an area that is quite average, drive a 3 door ford fiesta (1 car), only go abroad to visit family (pretty important in the grand scheme of things). As a professional, my wage is technically decent, but it doesn't really cover the lifestyle you might imagine it would. I really want us to be in a position to move to a 3 bed in the future, and to have a garden for a dog. That, as an aspiration, is not about money really. I want to have three children and yes, we could put them in one room and yes, there are parks if you don't have a garden and very fine kennels where you an borrow a dog for an afternoon. However, my parents managed what I dream of on much less money than I earn. It's one of the great lies of this type of debate on MN/in the media that because technically, people can scrape by on minimal wages that anyone who works does so for consumerist reasons. A lot of people are concerned for financial security, as they ever were, but the price of general goods and houses etc are much higher in relation to average income than they once were.

I think, and I speak professionally here, that some of the attachment stuff is overblown. I know quite a bit about this area, and can tell you that on any assessment, ds would rate as being securely attached to both dh and I, with me as primary attachment person - and is, in fat, much more securely attached than when he began nursery (which reflects his development - started nursery at 12 months having had no childcare etc). According to Biddulph et al, he shouldn't be away from a primary attachment figure at all at this point.. but I think humans are quite adaptable, and as long as they are loved consistently and have someone who loves them consistently, the likelihood of negative outcomes based on attachment is probably negligible.

None of which solves my need for alternative childcare for when ds is ill if I am to keep my job..

working9while 5-- why do you think the teachers are not ensuring sen children have inclusive education? surely designating work/support groups for the TA to mange is doing just that- that is the whole point of TAs.

Haven't read all of thread but DS1 was just as ill (between 1& 2) at a childminder's. I used up all but one day of my annual leave. Now considering going back to work after DS2 frightens me as I might not have enough annual leave to cover both boys' illnesses.

Missmapp, if a teacher asks the TA/LSA to design the educational content of work, differentiate the material etc and does not provide any differentiation of the whole class content to cater for the needs of the student, they are not providing inclusive practices as they would be defined by the Disability Discrimination Act etc. Children have a right to be educated by an appropriately qualified professional. That doesn't mean being shoved on a table with a worksheet that is inappropriate to your needs and level of understanding simply because there's a TA there. Part of my job involves monitoring teacher understanding of SEN and very frequently, teachers will not even know the diagnosis of the children involved or be able to give even one strategy to support their learning. This leads to kids with autism asking questions like "how did the fossil die?" and being told completely inappropriately "maybe it was in a car crash!" while the LSA tries to actually answer the question in a way that supports student learning, or LSA's/TA's being spoken to instead of the child e.g. a child says something to the teacher and they turn to the TA and say "what did he say?" or "what's he doing now?". I've seen teachers ask LSA's to write reports for annual reviews and write IEPs. That is not what support staff are there for.

But that's a tangent.

I have to say that I agree pretty much with Purepurple. My Ds is now 6yrs old and spent at least half of his 1st 5 years in hospital, then add outpatient appointments, then the 'normal' childhood illnesses............

I planned to go back to work after he was born, but that just wasn't possible. I just couldn't commit to being there when I didn't know from minute to minute when the next admisson would be. Financially we are much worse off and don't have lots of spare money. However we manage because we live within our means and we do the very best we can for him.

The one thing he is certainly not lacking in is the certaintly that we love him. Children can cope with lots of things we see as necessary (lovely home, nice things, best cuts of meat etc etc). They cannot live without love!

I am not saying you do not love your child Working, but I do have to say that from reading all of your responses you do sound a little bit distant. I cannot understand any parent who would want to send their child to CM or nursery when they were ill.

Add to that, I suppose I feel quite strongly about this as my son spent several episodes in hospital, VERY ill, due to other parents who think like you ( and some others here) and sent their children to nursery when they knew they were unwell. Quite a traumatic consequence for my son who suffered a great deal of pain, numerous I.Vs, morphine............just because someone didn't want to miss work!

Even a simple fever is an indication something is wrong. It is not always instantly obvious what is wrong and whether it's infectious or not.

Sorry I'm not more sympathetic. When you choose to become a parent you do it knowing that children will be ill at times. That's part and parcel of it all and you should ( in my opinion) have back up plans in place for when this happens, should you feel it necessary to still go to work during the illness.

If like you say you live somewhere where you have no connections and therefore no back-up support, then you need to either make sure you have an emergency nanny ( if you have the means) or you simply have to accept the choice you made to become a parent and accept that in providing the care necessary you may not be able to go to work and have to compromise on your standard of living.

( Awaits flaming)

I haven't read all the posts but having a dd who gets every bug going and always seems to be ill I really do understand your plight.

I have sent her to nursery out of desperation when she did not seem so bad, but to no avail as she deteriorates so quickly that I end up being called to come and get her anyway.

I also don't have a family network to call on. Nearest grandparent is two and a half hours away. And finding emergency short term paid care (like a temp nanny) is both impractical and unlikely.

I spend most of my annual leave on dds sick days. Luckily work are reasonable and understand the short notice, however I am forever feeling guilty.

dd is now coming up to 3 and the illnesses have not become any fewer in frequency, I'm afraid. Although I have been assured by all the Drs that she will grow out of it and some kids are just more susceptible at this age.

I think the only real answer if your work is not understanding is to get a full time nanny.