to think that Toby Young is a complete arse?

[Rosebud05]

out, vile spot!
N'night xxxx

Hear hear cat and dog. Very cogent and sensible.

My comparison was that of your inability to do anything but slag people off in a petty act of malice, Joan.

You were obviously unable to work thsat one out.

What a nasty nasty piece of work you are.

Hi Hants Pants- no I'm not Fiona Millar. I'm sure she'd do a much better job than me of detailing all the problems with free schools.

And, I'm afraid you are wrong about the diverting funding thing. In parts of the country where there is a shortage of secondary places, then they would have less of an impact, but in areas, such as the one I live in where there is a surplus of places, they do divert funding.

At the risk of repeating myself, schools are funded per pupil. LAs try to plan places in such a way that they keep surpluses as small as possible and increase extra capacity only when it's needed. This helps to stop schools turning into sink schools, because they attract the maximum amount of funding. This funding is different to the capital costs of setting up a new school.

Free schools operate outside of this planning process, which is a problem.

TY knew there wasn't a shortage of secondary places in Ealing when he was first trying to set up his school. He ignored this information and tried his best to set one up there anyway, because he's a 'complete arse'.

He's now setting one up in Hammersmith and everyone in the know is aware that the Tory council the has been leaned on by central government to make that school happen by hook or by crook.

In the meantime, his production company will have made £££ from the tv shows he's made about this, his appearances on panel shows and his many columns in the papers. I suspect that we'll also be seeing a book appearing at some point post September entitled: 'my school- how I did it all' or some such other drivel.

In my opinion, he isn't an educational visionary and crusader. He's a self-publicising nitwit.

But of course, you are all entitled to your own opinions. And moondog and SWC, I don't have the time to read back through all this thread, bit whoever said that the tone and language you are using on here is out of order was spot in IMO. You've got very personal about what is essentially a school place planning matter.

Passion in one thing, but hectoring and name calling is quite another. You should tone it down a bit.

But then, youl'll probably call me names for that too. Ho hum.

'And moondog and SWC, I don't have the time to read back through all this thread, bit whoever said that the tone and language you are using on here is out of order was spot in IMO.'

So, to summarise, I haven't read the thread but I will blindly agree with someone who says you two are being real old meanies. Oh, and I'll just shove in a load of jealous observations about Toby Young.

Right.

Great posts from moondog and swc.

And 2cats, i don't why you're lecturing them about hectoring and namecalling, take a look at joan's nasty little insults if you want to see some of that. I don't know how they've not been deleted tbh.

i don't see why

I don't live near TY, I don't give a shit about TY and when I have seen him interviewed think he sounds right up his own backside. HOWEVER, I do support anyone who wants to make improvements to our education system - however unpopular that change might be.

My DS is fortunate enough to be in a good state school. My son has an ASD and his school have got him reading and writing where a previous school failed. My only sadness is that this is not available in ALL schools for children with any kind of SN. If Free Schools are a success with the same budget and provide a better level of education then I am all for them.

Currently there is nothing nearby for DS at senior school level although his school feeds into the local excellent secondary school. I am more than aware that with his ASD this school may not be the right fit and it would be good to have a choice beyond the huge Acadamy school which is full to the brim with challenging teenagers.

Dilly, this is indeed the crux of the argument

'If Free Schools are a success with the same budget and provide a better level of education then I am all for them.'

And, to repeat an earlier point, the potential for children like yourson with ASD in free schools is massive.

The quality and patchiness of SN education in the UK is breathtaking. People really have no idea how terrifyingly bad most of it is.

I happen to think Toby Young is a bit of an arse myself, but this isn't about him, it's about the whole issue of free schools

I'm not hector and lecturing. I'm explaining exactly why free schools are a problem for state schools (and the children who attend them) in areas where there is no need for a new school. No capital were used. No exclaimation marks. No name calling (except at TY who deserves it).

How can you possibly take part in a discussion if you aren't allowed to present the facts as you know them? What a bizarre post.

No, no...wait! I get it. It's because I don't agree with you, isn't it?

.......now I understand.....

TY is indeed an arse. I used to work for one of the many organisations founded by his father, who was a brilliant man. TY just proves that children don't necessarily inherit the gifts of their parents.

Doubt very much that free schools will be a wonderland for children with SN. Suspect the reality will be that they will be more likely to refuse to admit them. Not terribly keen on taxpayers' money going to educate the children of the wealthy, tbh (more than it does already with charitable gift aid and reduction in business rates). LEAs can be pig-headed and obnoxious but there must be better ways of making them respond to parents.

well now, I wonder.

Perhaps if you go back and read carefully from yesterday afternoon, you might see there were insults on both sides.

Now we could look at it empirically and see who was nasty most often, or we could agree on a qualitative scale (ie, is a moron worse than a fool?), or we could look at the narrative arc overall. I'm not convinced I would come off worst under any of those methods.

Yesterday I said I was glad that the free school where I live had been abandoned and SWC asked whether that was because I was insance (sic) megalomaniac, and not to bother replying. So it didn't exactly start the ball rolling in an especially civil manner, did it?

Oh and Toby Young didn't do himself any favours on Any Qs just now: 'I've just done some research. On Wikipedia'.

not sure I totally understand the term 'free school.' Is this 'free' as in not under the direct control of the local authority? In the US, or at least California, there were 'alternative' schools which were less structured than a 'traditional' school and more emphasis on self reliance. For instance, one could opt to go to the library and read/study on an independent project rather than sit through a lesson.

But my understanding of free schools are a step up from Home Education. Not sure this is right, but it seems to have different definitions according to who is in charge of the project.

I will watch this space with regard to SN provision HOWEVER I understand (and will check) that one or two of the new Free Schools are FOR children with SN. I have a feeling one is focused on ASD.

And what about Anna Kennedy who has set up a school and now a further education college for students with ASDs. She fought a huge battle to do this and the school has been very successful and funded with the money which comes with a child being statemented.

I amy not like poor My Young very much but I defend absolutely his active approach to tackling what he sees as the problems with the education system.

I hope you're reading Edgars thread and the other one TobyTwat.

Might make even you think twice.

.. that thread has gone through my mind more than once today reeling . Puts things into perspective a bit doesn't it?

2 cats, thanks for your response.

You are, of course, right that money follows the pupil and in the event that, and only in the event that a Free School was generating surplus places in a neighbouring school, then that would mean that less funding was going to that school. However, the vagaries of the dedicated schools grant calculation would dampen that effect. It allows for falling rolls. For a detailed analysis see
www.parliament.uk/briefingpapers/commons/lib/research/briefings/snsp-04581.pdf

However, where a surplus will not be created, there will be ADDITIONAL central government funding via the DSG and other devolved funding sources passported through the LEA. This is absolutely the problem in West London but perhaps not where you live.

To repeat on the question on whether a Free School can be set up, there must be CLEAR EVIDENCE OF PARENTAL DEMAND otherwise the application will be turned down. With no pressure on places and the majority of parents getting their first choice, an application would not be approved.

Finally onto your point about Hammersmith Council being 'leant on' by central government. I must say this is an unevidenced assertion of quite breathtaking audacity. Please provide evidence for this. If you cannot, I warmly invite you to submit a freedom of information request to the Council in order to flush this one out. TY wanted to set the Free School up in Ealing but could not find a suitable building. The nearest suitable building was in Hammersmith, that's it.

2cats, can't help dwelling on your observation that 'everybody in the know' knows that Hammersmith Council was leant on.

How do you know and how do they know? Do you work in Michael Gove's office or at the Department for Education or are you the Leader or Chief Executive or Cabinet Member for Children's Services or perhaps the Director of Children's Services in Hammersmith???

I wait with baited breath.

Like all Government babies though this will be nurtured initially and the first Free schools will probably do very well. It was the same with Sure Start initially - the Government threw money at the first areas. Anything which is a big deal to a Government will not be allowed to fail - they will want these schools to succeed.

Whether the successes remain once the first waive are over remains to be seen. Like SureStart and then Childrens Centres there will be some which do a fantastic job and others which will be less successful in what they achieve.

I have googled and in actual fact the first schools approved (commencing in September 2011) don't include any with just SN provision but the structure is there and anybody attempting to set up a school will be able to do so with hopefully less problems than Anna Kennedy faced when she attempted (and succeeded) in setting up a school which focused purely on children with ASDs.

Is there a minimum number of pupils required for a free school?

i dont know but Im assuming they cant take a full school on just like that?

They probably just take children a year at a time??

an interesting article for those of you who remain unconvinced that private companies are eying up state schools

It's even from the Torygraph....