Ex forces members as schoolteachers, (Panorama tonight?)

[GabbyLoggon]

Are they being unreasoable?

Its a government idea copied from America
(suprise, suprise)

Training ex forces members to be schoolteachers (It has always been open for them to do that.)

Is it a gimmick? The trouble is Cameron learned from Blair the art of regular publicity stunts.

So it is difficult to know what to take seriously.

What do the teaching profession think of it? "Gabby"

and when these brutalised damaged young men ( or sorry children) come back from Iraq and Afghan - what does the army do?
IT THROWS THEM OUT

nice

In many situations corns12k. Largely practical and vocational.

I am a bloody good teacher yet I am a nursing sister not a teacher. I have a professional qualification to teach nurses but would never be able to teach schoolchildren.

I think the boundaries between being an educator and being a teacher are blurred.

Today I took my two quite young children to the theatre to see something aimed at 10-12 year olds.
There were plenty of children who clearly weren't on a school trip ie the whole class wasn't there, 1 teacher per student that sort of thing.
I had the misfortune to be sat in front of two girls of around 13-14, who fidgeted throughout, kicked the chairs, announced they needed the toilet loudly, complained they were bored.
The highlight was when the two girls asked to go out for a fag in the interval and the teacher let them. How is that helping those two ? What exactly is the point of that teacher ?
We had to move seats in the end because he was completely ineffective at controlling them, getting them to sit quietly or taking them out, I doubt they got anything out of the "boring" performance and yet they've had a morning out of school at our expense and ruined something I paid £60 to see.
I'd say army personnel could not do a worse job tbh.

They are not ex-squaddies - are we in the 1950s? Those who will e made redundant range from 20 year olds with GCSEs to highly trained officers with post grad degrees and professional qualifications. It is known as 'civvy street' within the military even in 2011.

As for 'had to be engaging and interesting. and lets face it most service types are neither' You evidently don't know many then - all the service types I know are highly polished, articulate, engaging and interesting and all have wicked senses of humour. Don't let your lack of knowledge stand in the way of a stereotype though.

Many in the military will have experience of working with people from differing backgrounds often very difficult ones, and part of the duties of an Officer is being in the Navy, a divisional officer, which means that from a youngish age, that officer is responsible for the pastoral care of his team. This could range from helping to sort out debt problems, to getting someone home when their child is born early, to trying to help with who to contact for access arrangements to children, getting in contact with military social workers/ guidance for a divorce case; advising on a girlfriend who says she is pregnant, but it may not be yours - sounds a bit like the pastoral care I did for my tutor group in many cases.

'As far as I can see ex-forces have nothing to offer in fact I'd go as far as saying their forces careers make them highly undesirable' Why? A work ethic second to none; used to going without leave to get the job done; adept at doing more with less; used to doing 80+ hours per week; sick leave a rarity (no cover needed!); not much phases them; pragmatic and concrete solutions offered; team players; highly educated in many cases; international and diplomatic experience; languages spoken include Bulgarian, Arabic, colloquial Russian and French amongst my friends; a wealth of experience to draw on. I would argue that the military have a damn sight more to offer than the wet behind the ears NQTs I worked with, fresh out of uni and having done nothing between that and school, with no life experience whatsoever.

Yes you canbe a very good teacher without formal teaching qualifications, passion and general good communication skills help but not in a formal setting.

Im PMSL at ex service people trying to keep up with decisions and changes that have no rhyme or reasons to them in schools, the inefficiencies the frustration with 'the system' Oh dear and yes I am a disenfranchised teacher - I am retraining actually to something else - at my own expense and my students loans havnt been written off no I am err not bitter....

So cleansing.....

Build glasshouses in schools.

Sidge you have the same nursing experience as my sister who then trained to be a teacher. I think she could have been a teacher without the training to be honest as she is a 'natural' so yes I agree with you on that aspect. It's a difficult one to judge though - how can you tell?

MilaMae with all respect I think you have a very dated view of what life and leadership in the Forces is like.

Yes of course it's authoritarian but it's nothing like the Forces of 10 or 20 years ago. And service personnel are dealing with people in the 'real world' all the time, given that most shore establishments, dockyards and bases are hugely staffed by civvies nowadays.

Hear hear scaryteacher, couldn't have said it better myself.

'ex service people trying to keep up with decisions and changes that have no rhyme or reasons to them in schools, the inefficiencies the frustration with 'the system'' That's what the Services have been doing with successive governments ad Defence reviews for the past 45 years to my certain knowledge. Have you not been reading the papers and the Services reactions to SDSR?

I do have a big problem with teachers who stay in one school for their entire career - it's very limiting. Happens lot in leafy suburbs.

ST, what world are you living in where redundant forces members range from people with several GCSEs to a degree? Many of the people I have worked with who have left the forces can barely read, and the if the pastoral care is so great, why are so many of them living on the streets or in homelessness hostels?

My DS's favorite teacher was an ex soldier straight from Afghanistan. He taught science and DS had him for 3 years running. Unfortunately he is off on paternity leave now DS is doing his GCSEs.

mama the teacher could NOT have stopped those two gong outside for fags and they know this, that is why they allow them to go. All you can do is record it. If a student wants to walk off school site, they can, you cant physically stop them, you have to warn them, then inform parents and possible local police as they are unsupervised.

Seriously if you sent home kids who got caught smoking, parents would complain - some work who have to take time off or just dont want their kids there.

For some teenagers they have been smoking a number of years and have a very real addiction, in some cases there behaviour is worse if they are denied their 'fix'. Smoking can be way down the list as a 'problem' when it comes to teaching and learning in a classroom.

If you stopped every kid you saw out of uniform/worn incorrectly who swore who had a phone out who dropped rubbish who had ciggerettes who was selling donuts in between staff room and classroom you wold never get there.

who said "build glasshouses in schools" it made me laugh. A bit OTT me thinks.

I think posters are right to be sceptical of the governements motives on this. (they are politicians )

I don't have a problem with it per se, I do however have a problem with the gimmick aspect of this and believe that no-one from the forces should be given special treatment or a more rapid route to becoming a teacher than anyone else because of some perceived 'special qualities' they may have. Everyone should have to train to the same level and be assessed by the same standards.

Scary no teacher I havnt, however the forces always seem so much more 'professional' and organised it is not like this in schools. I am not saying they couldnt I just think they would find the transission hard. I am very cynical re my own profession aswell as yet another initiative to improve standards in schools:

Small classes
Less Admin
Enforce home school contracts
Respect
Specialist pastoral staff - let teacher teach.
Leave curriculum alone

lovenamechange Which is why those two girls are damaging their health because nobody can say no to them, i smoked in the 5th year but my god you'd never have let a teacher know you had ciggies or they'd have gone in the bin, crushed in front of you.
So what do you do just give up ?
You certainly don't reward them with day trips out of school.

Sorry Scarey you've forgotten the one important skill ie the ability to teach and the ability to teach stroppy teenagers who don't want to learn, who are used to doing what they like and who know their parents don't support school.

We're talking about teaching kid,getting kids through exams,giving kids a love of your subject etc. We're talking dealing with SEN issues,getting concepts across to kids etc,etc,etc. Being able to teach is a true gift and I'm sorry but advising staff on debt doesn't make you suddenly gods gift to teaching or able to deal with kids who don't want to learn when you're used to dealing with adults who are being paid a salary and value their career.

Patience, a thorough knowledge of your subject/subjects,love of your subject, a thorough education in the art of teaching and communicating your subject,ability to handle children and manage classes -these are qualities I personally value not wether a person is "polished" or speaks Bulgarian.

MillyR
Mon 28-Feb-11 13:23:02 Back to top ↑ Add message Report
Perhaps we should be looking at this the other way around and asking why forces people who don't have a PGCE are allowed to train 16, 17 and 18 year olds within a military environment in the first place?

So if you can teach in FE without a PGCE, why question the vocational training the military are providing on the grounds they don't have a PGCE? Just because many FE colleges have previously insisted on some kind of training (and teachers are now being required to do the LLUK courses) why apply the PGCE to the military but not ordinary FE colleges?

I know that those involved in training new recruits are being encouraged to take the C/DTLLS anyway.

These are hugely valuable skills being applied in the 16-19 age group in one specific setting which could well be extended down to younger teens in a school.

There are a lot of prejudices and misconceptions on this thread. Those ex-Forces personnel who don't want to teach won't. Those who do may well have a better understanding of people than applicants from other sectors because at the end of the day the military is about personnel. If they have those abilities and want to teach then make use of them where they can make a real difference.

Other countries have military schools which work wonders.

scary a lot of sense in that "Gabby"

The real world Milly - the redundancies are about to hit, the redundancy boards are currently being convened and the first tranche will know by May/June and be outside shortly thereafter; and everyone is in range, be they very junior ratings with GCSEs or experienced RN Commanders/Captains with MAs/MScs and professional qualifications.

I agree that the pastoral care once you have left is not good, but the pastoral care whilst you are in, is good and taken very seriously. People are entitled to resettlement training and grants, and are also offered CV, career and financial advice. This starts well in advance of leaving.

As for those who can't read - evidently the educational system has failed them before joining up; there is the opportunity to do GCSEs whilst in the services, it is up to the individual to take advantage of it.

MillyR: yes, homelessness is a problem, and a major reason is that able-bodied young people are just so far down the housing lists (especially when they have had a peripatetic existence for years and cannot demonstrate any tie to an area). You probably don't see the ones with higher qualifications because they do not end up on the streets. I agree that some are very inarticulate. That doesn't mean that those are typical.

I am not trying to say that all Forces leavers would make good teachers. Simply that it is wrong to assume that none would be suitable, especially when that view gets confuddled with out-dated stereotypes.

I agree mama this is why so many staff are frustrated - indeed it can be difficult to perform a search and confiscate things, and the backlash is tantrums X10! I dont agree with rewards especially bikes,vouchers etc for attendance but this is the currency they understand. Like Ive said in another post I am so cynical I never though I would be here and never wanted to be but I take my hat off to those FTer who just keep going and going (and laugh slyly at those who havnt got kids yet and teach FT)

I also think a lot of people are forgetting that we're talking about dealing with children here not adults.

Ensuring a class of 30 lively 5 year olds(or 13 year olds) leave your class reading when you have no support from home is sooooooo different from handling a small group of adults who want to be there.

The naivety is just staggering.