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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Ex forces members as schoolteachers, (Panorama tonight?)

552 replies

GabbyLoggon · 28/02/2011 11:53

Are they being unreasoable?

Its a government idea copied from America
(suprise, suprise)

Training ex forces members to be schoolteachers (It has always been open for them to do that.)

Is it a gimmick? The trouble is Cameron learned from Blair the art of regular publicity stunts.

So it is difficult to know what to take seriously.

What do the teaching profession think of it? "Gabby"

OP posts:
meditrina · 02/03/2011 11:11

If you look at DASA, the rate of those presenting with mental health problems in the Armed Forces is 15.5 per 1000. In UK as a whole, the rate (according to MIND) is 230 per 1000. Even if you aim off for under-reporting within the military, this is a huge difference which points to the Forces community having a much lower rate than the general population.

The is no mechanism to capture stats for ex-Forces (who would be a subset of whole UK rate, as previous military service is not routinely recorded by NHS), but it it not a something identified by MIND as a high risk factor.

scaryteacher · 02/03/2011 11:14

LDN - you do say a career in 'the military' leads to being trained in torture, mental health problems etc etc. You do not bother to differentiate between the different Services, so yes, you are lumping them all in together by definition. Differentiation is something you will have to learn about if you want to teach, so best get started.

If you want to argue that 'the military' do certain things, then you need to be very sure of your ground and very specific about what you are alleging our military do and do not do. You have no concrete evidence that having a military past impacts on teaching ability, any more than the fact I used to work for HMRC impacts on mine. Again you generalise about a 'culture of mental health problems' - some of those who have been in combat may manifest this, but others won't, and those who haven't been in a a war zone won't, anymore than Joe Public might have mental health problems. I had severe delayed PND years before I went into teaching. That hasn't made a difference to my teaching ability - should I have had a psychological assessment as well because I had a mental health problem?

'A lot of the information i sighted is sourced from reputable articles, some quotes have been taken from ex service people' Nope, not many (and please, it's cited; did you say you are doing a dissertation?) - and as I have pointed out Grossman is irrelevant because US Forces training is very different to our own.

'and the controversy surrounding the uses of torture has brought to light that it is a very real thing and commanding officers participate or were aware, the fact that there was legal action taken against the British military by people who had been tortured should substantiate that, it is common knowledge that it goes on.' The man in Iraq was an isolated incident; those who did it have been punished as they should have been, but your assertion that COs participate or are aware is well wide of the mark. Why would anybody jeopardise their honour, reputation, career, pension and face jail as a CO for that? People try to bring legal action against the Military frequently, that doesn't always mean that those allegations are true, just that perhaps they think HMG will pay out. It is not common that torture goes on by the UK Military (Geneva convention and all that legally binding treaty stuff) whatever you may like to think, so thus it cannot be common knowledge. Abu Grahib was a US run facility, not a Brit one if that is what you were thinking of.

'I didn't say that all military personnel are exposed to combat, but all go through training to make them part of the military system, you cannot deviate from the core set of values and still be part of the military so it means extreme uniformity.' And my point was that they do not go through the same type of training as there is no point in training a Cavalry Officer in the same way as a nuclear submariner. As to extreme uniformity, nope, Army are different to Navy (who can be split into skimmers and submariners) who are different to the RAF. There is an amazing mix of sub cultures going on in HM Forces, so what may appear uniform to an uninformed observer like yourself, isn't the case at all.

'I feel this would hinder a persons ability to teach when teaching is not about uniformity and I question whether the person could adapt.' See above. What you don't realise, because you don't know and like to generalise, is that Forces personnel have to adapt every 18 months to 2 years to a completely new job, requiring new skills in anew environment, often away from home, and with new people to adapt to and work for, with or supervise. Thus, one might in the space of 12 years have 7 different postings/jobs with different people in different places all requiring a different skill set and having to learn new skills as well and having to hot the ground running form Day 1. That's adapting imo.

One thing you will need to grasp if you want to teach is avoiding bias. On balance, you haven't done that very well here. You have bought into the majority of the stereotypes about 'the military', without bothering to investigate or understand the reality of and the legalities binding HM Forces. Those of us 'right wing military affiliated people' (some of whom will undoubtedly vote Labour, you make a sweeping and unfounded generalisation yet again, voting is anonymous so how would you even know what the political leaning is of a random stranger on the internet? Remember: PQE) know that the military isn't perfect, but we can see past the ends of our noses and recognise the skills that being in the Forces gives to people.

You say you are West African - the only place I can see there that the UK Military are involved in is Sierra Leone and that needs all the help it can get. I don't see where else in that region the Govt or the Military are eroding rights.

Wikileaks mmmmm. A very US take on events, and having seen Assange's rants on the news during his extradition hearings, I think he is more than a little unhinged. I'd like to know what is driving his particular agenda.

Love your comment about 'absolutist points of view'...pot, kettle?

ScramVonChubby · 03/03/2011 13:23

Well I can see another big issue with this

Spoke to a leading RG teacher based training course today; they are not sure if they will run the course for my subject (RE) next eyar due to changes in funding

Ditto another university I contacted, and another telling me to apply by November as they will only run a half sized course if they do it at all.

Access, degree, MA...... six years. Argh.

scaryteacher · 03/03/2011 20:16

Glad I did my RE PGCE years ago then!

Have you tried Exeter - they do RE PGCE, as we used to get their students, or is that going to be too far and difficult?

BlueCollie · 03/03/2011 20:37

LDN just wanted to say that I am an A and E nurse both in the NHS and the military. I have met far more teachers with mental health problems than I have ever met people in the military.

I have been taught both by civilian teachers and military teachers. I can honestly say from a learning point of view the military ones were far better. For starters they were on time. Due to the fact they have had to socialise and work with people from different ethnic, class and educational abilities and also people of varying ages they are very adept at teaching to a wide range of people.

Some of the comments made on here are appalling and show how little experience people have of environments outside there on little lives.

ScramVonChubby · 03/03/2011 21:13

ST moving that way in 2 yeras hopefully so it might be in reserve; I have emailed them. it might be I need to change all my plans.

bristol is sayng they might not run it, Swansea a bit unsure, awaiting news from otehrs ATM.

PSE seems akin to a lot I care about; a lot of what got me into the whole field anwyay. I can;t find any answers yet if my degree is OK but I can ask.

Either would be OK I think, am not bloody giving up now after all this !

McDreamy · 03/03/2011 21:15

Bluecollie what service are you? I am a retired PM, wonder if I know you - it's a small world Smile

scaryteacher · 03/03/2011 21:20

PSE waste of time - do RE. Marjons in Plymouth perhaps as theirs is accredited by Exeter (and is where I did mine)?

MillyR · 03/03/2011 21:35

Meditrina, it will allow ex-military to teach in secondary schools without ever having completed an undergraduate degree. The compressed course leading to QTS will be used instead. Currently, all teachers either have an undergraduate degree plus either a postgraduate degree /1 year school based training/teach first programme. The only exception to this is very old teachers who trained as teachers before that training was awarded degree status.

While it is already possible for someone to compress an undergraduate degree alone into two years (having already got various degrees I could complete an undergraduate degree in some disciplines in 2 years), I find it hard to see how a 2 year TDA course for the military is equal to an undergraduate degree and 1 year of teacher training.

Even if it is equivalent, it still leaves unanswered the question of why only the ex-military are being allowed to replace 4 years of education and training with 2.

I find it hard to understand how teachers are meant to encourage children that it is important to work towards gaining academic qualifications if they themselves become less qualified than many other professions.

scaryteacher · 03/03/2011 21:46

'The only exception to this is very old teachers who trained as teachers before that training was awarded degree status.' Careful - some aren't that old and have a Cert Ed!

meditrina · 03/03/2011 21:49

I didn't realised TDA had yet released information on course content etc. Do you have a link? Also, will the course be ex-military only? I had expected that it wouldn't be (as they would never have the numbers to make it worthwhile).

DfE has to approve the route to the state school classroom. You seem concerned about their standards and/or effectiveness in this - I don't know much about that Dept: is it not fit for purpose?

MillyR · 03/03/2011 22:00

Meditrina, all I have read is that the TDA are designing a course for ex-military non-graduates to qualify as teachers. I haven't heard that the course content has been announced.

I wouldn't have the expertise to make a judgement on the DfE. I'm not a teacher. I have read some of the threads on the TES forum and teachers are obviously concerned about the changes to the way that people become teachers, the issue of cover supervisors and so on. So the concerns existed before this issue of the military.

The DfE, like all government departments has made mistakes in the past and no doubt will do in the future. Not being fit for purpose might be a bit of an extreme judgement for anyone to make!

BlueCollie · 03/03/2011 22:28

mcdreamy I'm Army or as my DH says Toy Army.....

McDreamy · 03/03/2011 22:45

Grin yes we were referred to as the plastic RAF Grin

woodleydoodle · 03/03/2011 22:50

I have a PGCE and have worked in mainstream education as well as specialist. It comes down largely to personality and an understanding of classsroom management. There were aspects of being a teacher/tutor I was good at, others, I was less proficient at. Some ex forces personnel would be good educators. Some - less so. Similarly to some former business people, scientists, hairdressers, artists etc. Knowledge and assertiveness are essential, so are specific classroom skills. "Sit down and read page 16" is not an effective across the board instruction, despite the fact that some Daily Mail readers think it should be. x

SnapFrakkleAndPop · 04/03/2011 08:36

'Currently, all teachers either have an undergraduate degree plus either a postgraduate degree /1 year school based training/teach first programme'

Some have an undergraduate BA or BEd with QTS. Only available for primary training but once you have QTS you can teach any key stage as long as you prove you can teach the subject. Or is that what you meant with the first either?

MillyR · 04/03/2011 08:41

SFAP, I was referring to secondary school teachers, as I stated in the paragraph you have quoted from. The BA Ed is a 4 year course anyway.

MrsSnaplegs · 04/03/2011 08:46

Mcdreamy and bluecollie - we may all know each other I am dark blue and med as well but with many purple jobs Grin

SnapFrakkleAndPop · 04/03/2011 09:01

And as I pointed out that once you have QTS you can teach in any key stage, which means that teachers with that qualification can teach in secondary. Just because the training focuses on primary level doesn't mean you can't teach in secondary with it.

Doesn't matter about the length of the course, they still don't have either the postgrad or a year of SCITT. I happen to know BCU's primary ed with QTS is only 3 years although many are 4.

meditrina · 04/03/2011 09:01

Snap: I think that's what I meant! It's a bit hard for a non-teacher to keep up with all the various routes (especially those that don't quite exist yet, like compressed courses and who will be eligible for them - I find it hard to believe there would be enough ex-military candidates to make it a sole preserve, and compression is being talked about in a number of scenarios)

It's DfE who are responsible for the standards of teacher reaching the classroom, and I think most of the concerns expressed in this thread are their responsibility. Weaknesses in quality control would affect all potential teachers, irrespective of previous background.

MillyR · 04/03/2011 09:15

SFAP, that is yet another weakness in the training of teachers then. I assumed that somebody moving from primary to secondary teaching would have to have an undergraduate degree in their subject area, and not a BA Ed. The number of people being allowed into teaching without adequate experience and subject knowledge is absurd, particularly when so many teachers are unemployed, and so many graduates are now also unemployed.

The Government was meant to be working towards getting teachers to MA or MSc level to meet international standards. I can't see that happening now. With all this going on in teaching, I can see the appeal of bringing in the section of the military who actually do have degrees.

SnapFrakkleAndPop · 04/03/2011 09:37

It is undoubtedly a weakness. I have friends who teach primarily their non-degree subject. People who did music with me are teaching maths, having done a secondary music PGCE, on the strength of a maths A-level, a psychology graduate is teaching A-level biology....

You're supposed to prove you gave adequate subject knowledge but to many schools that means having a level above what you're teaching so an A-level to teach GCSE and in some circumstances a GCSE to teach year 7s.

Unfortunately some schools find themselves chronically understaffed where it matters so need teachers to be multifunctional, which in itself isn't a bad thing, but also the laxity on PGCE entries over I'd say about the last 10 years has produced some rather skewed applicants.

mrsnich84 · 05/03/2011 22:16

Ive just found this thread and I have to say that some of this generalised crap is ridiculous. As an RAF wife (who has a Biomedical Science degree from Durham University and a very good job as a state registered specialist biomedical scientist in cellular pathology - so I'd thank you not to call me dim) I think that people are losing sight of what this scheme could potentially mean. Well trained teachers with life experience and self confidence and self discipline. Some of the best teachers I've met have had military backgrounds. The worst teachers were the ones who had no self discipline and would lose their tempers and couldnt think under pressure. I remember a very young chemistry teacher telling us we were all a bunch of twats and to just fuck off out of his sight. He was fresh out of uni and had no idea what real life was like and how to deal with pressure. Ex-military personnel would never react like that. If they had the qualities to be an effective teacher (which some won't - because not everyone is suited to it) their military training would teach them to control their tempers. My husband is a very effective member of his detachment but is also a very patient, mild mannered, calm man who has a love of anything cute and fluffy Grin he doesnt need to raise his voice. He commands respect because he treats people with respect. He is not a mindless automaton with no ability to think for himself. I think he would make an excellent teacher - and if thats what he wanted to do when he left the RAF then I would support him wholeheartedly.

rant over Grin

patiencenotmyvirtue · 05/03/2011 22:51

All this faith in the individual characteristics of ex-military personnel is missing the point.

You can be as charismatic as you like, but if the system says a school has external controls on whom they can discipline, and how ( and they do) coupled with the preening sense of entitlement so prevalent in UK schools, then individuals are on a hiding to nothing.

I have noticed that where the management support the staff, they are confident and calm on the whole. In this way, those with real weaknesses as teachers are more evident and can be helped to improve. Or shown the door.

ScramVonChubby · 06/03/2011 16:00

Well yes Mrsnich but not every graduate fresh out of uni forghting for a PGCE place is an unders kskilled 21 year old... I am 37 for a start but know it will be hard for me to use the qualifications I have spent years amassing for just this purpose as the courses are taking very few now.

I just think anybody from any background should be able to fight for that place on a level playing field. My ASD MA is badly needed in education but I first need the bog standard PGCE to use it. I don;t think as an individual I should ahve any advanatge over anyone else but neither disadvanatge: my quals, personality and experience should speak for themselves. I reailse that the people being let go from the army need a chance for a new start but not only them: as a carer I also had a fairly hefty barrier stuck in my face that I ahve to find a way around. This was supposed to be my route, the coleges are already saying anybody who gets a PGCE place in 2012 is lucky. I am not sure luck pays the rent though, and I'm bladdered if I can find anything else I would be good at and that would work with the kid's needs.

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