Ex forces members as schoolteachers, (Panorama tonight?)

[GabbyLoggon]

Are they being unreasoable?

Its a government idea copied from America
(suprise, suprise)

Training ex forces members to be schoolteachers (It has always been open for them to do that.)

Is it a gimmick? The trouble is Cameron learned from Blair the art of regular publicity stunts.

So it is difficult to know what to take seriously.

What do the teaching profession think of it? "Gabby"

I think, generalising, it's not going to be rank and file going for this. It's going to be people who are used to getting the best out if 16/17/18 year olds who have been underachievers, labelled as troublemakers and told that the only option for them is the military. Those kind of ex-Forces personnel - if you can get them intervening even earlier - may well do a lot of good.

I see working it in the classes I teach within a military setting. Young men who initially say they're stupid/can't do it are given confidence and skills, which a lot of the time is down to those commanding them. Positive behaviour and achievement is rewarded, negative behaviour is sanctioned, sure, but not in the way most people view discipline in the military!

Some lovely stereotypes of Forces personnel on this thread

They're not all soldiers.
They're not all screaming bully boys.
You don't automatically get things done by virtue of rank, you often get things done because you're effective, authoritarian and a good leader who has earned respect.

Nothing to do with teaching I admit, but the modern Forces aren't all about shooting and screaming you know. Oh and you're not allowed to lay a finger on anyone.

I agree that the coalition are going down the wrong street with this idea but for a different set of reasons.

I agree with mumsnot. I'd also be rather concerned about the emphasis on military careers and on the political bent of ex-forces teachers.
As opposed to the emphasis on public sector careers and the political bent of current teachers (many of whom have never held a job outside of academia)?

Fine if they are nly going to gain entry into teaching just as anyone else would, not fine if they have special treatment or push the "glory" of war or of a military career at my children.
I don't think many ex soldiers will be pushing the "glory" of war. I am sure they will give realistic advice about military careers.

I would think that ex-army personnel would have a far more realistic, pragmatic view of life than some naive middle-class person that has gone straight from school to uni to teaching without any experience of life in the real world.

Perhaps we should be looking at this the other way around and asking why forces people who don't have a PGCE are allowed to train 16, 17 and 18 year olds within a military environment in the first place?

I think the officer element of it also concerns me. The army is so class based and the officer class is still drawn quite heavily from independent schools. I would be happier if they were drawing more from other ranks and giving them an opportunity to educate themselves and get into a career, as the forces do such a poor job of preparing the lower ranks for civilian life.
I would think it'd be more suitable for NCOs than proper officers.

Oh and I speak as a teacher and somebody who had a forces childhood.

I know from experience the difficulties people in the forces often have when dealing with kids. My dad was a lovely dad but bloody hell he found it hard adjusting to dealing with kids at times as did several other fathers I know.

Handling kids and handling soldiers are just poles apart.My dad is fab with his grandchildren but it's taken him years to adjust.

RobF, teachers work in schools, not academia.

Because they're highly trained, highly skilled personnel with years of experience and great people skills, MillyR?

You don't need a PGCE to work in FE....

Sidge, so are teachers, but they still have to have specific qualifications if they want to teach children and young people. What makes young people in the army different?

Still if it they are to be placed with risk of exclusion/units including SEN a years teacher training will not prepare you to teach such children, these are the most challenging groups in secondary schools to teach and even very accomplished teachers with years of experience arent always able to effectively teach such children.

Thats not to say it doesnt require experience it does AND specialist training AND a certain set of interpersonal skills (soft skills set). I fail to see how leaving services 1 year training will achieve this.

The funding would be better spent supporting staff in schools and specialist training for experienced staff as well funding places for those who really desire to teach not for persons (from whereever)who have been made redundant and its an option as part of compensation package.

Complete class of ethos and culture it just wouldnt work.

Maybe the problem is with schools almost total lack of discipline, not with the army? Maybe if schools were run more strictly we might not have record amounts of NEETs and a pandemic of youth crime?

SNAP you are still ecpected to have educational training of some sort usually a cert ed. for FE.

SFAP, many people working in FE do have a PGCE, and those that don't are often working towards one. There isn't a culture in FE colleges of thinking qualifications are irrelevant to the job.

RobF have you been in a school lately?

Young people in the army are there to be soldiers, not to be treated like children. If they wanted to be treated like children, I assume they'd still be at school.

Yes so are teachers, my point is that you don't have to be a teacher to teach.

You can be a good teacher without a formal teaching qualification IMO.

In what circumstances Sidge?

RobF have you been in a school lately?
Yes. I volunteered some three years ago with a view to doing a PGCE.

In one school?

Well Robf you may have a very good point there, but as discussed on another thread parents often do not support sanction used by schools, teacher are scared shitless all the time of getting into trouble re parental complaint or worse suspended.sued etc. You cant do f**k all. Generally speaking parents are less strict with there kids these days too, it has become more child centered. Its hard to instill discipline in schools when it is not supported by parents.

And much of what you learn in the military isn't comparable to what you learn in school.

You wouldn't expect a primary school teacher to go and teach new recruits in a training establishment.

Just like you wouldn't expect a sergeant major to go and teach a primary class.

The settings, agenda and curriculum aren't comparable.

Yes, in one school.

RobF, I agree that there is a problem with some schools, and that problem is often to do with inadequate provision for vulnerable children. The solution to that would be to train teachers who want to work with this specific group and provide them with the funding and facilities to teach them effectively. I don't see what that has to do with the forces (which is not to say that people with experience in the forces should be excluded from applying).

I also think many are forgetting the teenagers we're talking about won't be in the forces,they can do what they damn well please and they know it. They don't have to do anything if the school isn't supported by home which won't change just beacause ex military are teaching.

Ex miliitary staff will be used to dealing with people who do have to do what they say as it's their job and they signed up for it. They will have a huge shock when dealing with people in the real world,it's that shock/adjustment that concerns me.