WWYD sister and "inheritance" from parents.

[IHeartKittensAndWine]

My oldest sister has asked my parents to sell a flat they own in order that she and her husband can pay off their mortgage and send their three children to private secondary schools. My parents have asked my middle sister and me for our thoughts before they make a decision.

Background: Fifteen years ago my grandparents died and left my parents a small flat in central London. They kept it and rented it out and gave DSis1 and her now DH a small deposit (they were newly out of uni and had no savings). They bought a large house in a part of London which was then down-at-heel and is now very fashionable.

Although they aren't well off financially they have a LOT of equity and could just as easily sell their house (a neighbour with a near identical property has just completed a £1m sale), move to the part of London where my middle sister and I live mortgage free and have enough left over for the older two, and pay for the youngest one out of the salary freed up by not having a mortgage. We have looked at prices for 4 bed houses in our area and there is good stuff in the price range which would enable them to do this. The part of London middle sister and I live in has a lot of advantages but is more suburban and less fashionable.

Oldest sister wants to do this because the state secondaries in their area are pretty poor. She has said that she will relinquish any claim to further inheritance if they sell the flat and gift her the money. Middle sister annd I were also gifted parts of our deposits from our parents BTW so we are not jealous. We are keen for our parents not to do this because 1) my grandparents flat would be perfect for an elderly couple and they could live very happily on the rent or sale of their house as they come to retire on very shrunken pensions 2) My parents were always very against inherited wealth and clear that our educations and deposits were all we should ever expect and we feel that oldest sister is trying now to move the goalposts.

My parents have asked is for our thoughts and we are thinking about saying all that I have put down here. I am aware that rather than a simple "no" the "why don't you move" proposal sounds very interfering in oldest sister's life... but at the same time I am keen not to say no without pointing out the alternative. What do you think?

Would they adopt me by any chance ?

sorry

"Primaries are alright but secondaries not so good, unless you pretend to be religious (which she couldn't/wouldn't do)..."

But would guilt her parents into selling a property

tell you sis to go swivel cheeky bitch

Reality, I agree - what I was trying to get across is that he has never seemed to realise that how they spend their money is something they have to consider carefully not something they can just throw about.

it's not her inheritance, it's not anybody's - it's your parent's money/property until they die and then it' sup to them what they do with it

if she wants her children to go to private school then she should fund it

Diddl - my family are Jewish. The schools are referring to are CofE/Catholic. She's only been inside churches for other people's weddings and she's never been able to get out of bed on a Sunday morning!

Wow. I think your sister is very cheeky indeed.

I would explain your thoughts to your parents though stress that ultimately it's there decision.

IHeart he didn't challenge the will. He sought lega advice which basically said that he didn't have a chance.

What he did do was write to his step fathers children enclosing a copy of the will they had had together before his Mum died explaining why he felt agrieved. He actually was very sensitive in how he did it (which is hard to get accross here - looks like he was hounding bereaved relatives for cash which is so NOT to way it was) and although doing what he did didn't sit well with him he felt that he owed it to his parents memory to stand up for them.

Needess to say it made no difference

Ah, OK

Agree with all the comments about her greedy sense of entitlement.
I would never dream of asking this of my parents, it's so distasteful.

However, tread carefully with telling her where she should live, it will piss her off and give her more ammo in the ensuing row.
Although, when she tells you mind your own business on that score, you can remind her to do the same regarding your parents property.

Playing devil's advocate:

Why should your sister leave a much-loved home where her children are happy and probably have local friends they would have trouble keeping in touch with if they moved away?

Why can't your parents just downsize from their own current home (that I presume they own) when their needs require, they don't need to go into granny's old flat?

If you & your sibs don't inherit from your parents' wealth, who will? Why shouldn't they plan to leave you 3 their money?

It's not your sister's fault that she was able to buy in 1995 when the deposit money went further, and you & other sibling had to buy in 2005/2009 when property prices were so high.

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That said, I'd object. I was wondering if you could suggest that they give each of you an equal share from the proceeds of selling the flat, and otherwise put aside (?into trust) equal amounts of money for the education of each daughter's children (note I said equal amounts for each daughter, not equal for each grandchild).

And not bother about changing the will.

My big fear about a plan to leave Eldest sister out of the will is that she could still contest it later, I bet.

ALso you don't have to pay tax on proceeds of house sales when you live in the house.

So your parents could sell their house and pick up a tidy profit which they would keep all of. Then move into grandparents house. And at sometime if they wished (or needed to to fund care in their old age for eg) sell that too and not need to pay tax on it.

Ragged... see your points. The main reason why I'm not keen that they sell the flat is that they would lose out both on rental income and on capital gains tax. They then couldn't afford to move into something similar when they downsized. The flat is PERFECT for an elderly couple who still want to do things - good transport connections, and lots of things happening near by eg museums, very neary good hospitals, no stairs/difficult spaces etc. Also, because it is there it makes the whole conversation around downsizing a lot easier.

If they sold it and put it in trust we'd get 120k each which wouldn't get oldest sister nearly far enough for school fees. They couldn't afford to pay the differential out of income and I doubt they'd be able to release it through remortgaging due to salary, self employment etc.

I think it's an outrageous demand. It's their money and flat to do with as they wish, if they did want to give a large amount to your sister or any of you, then that would be fine and generous of them, but she's really out of order 'asking' them to do so. Were they really not offended by this?

She's an adult, she has absolutely no right to her parent's money or property - not while they're still alive anyway! Her sense of entitlement is really unbelieveable. Personally I wouldn't take any money from my parents even if it was freely offered, better that they keep it to enjoy their retirement and pay for any care they may need as they get older.

If my children ever turn out like this, I'll be leaving all my money to dog rescue charities! Though I might well do that anyway - would expect my grown-up children to be able to stand on their own two feet and pay their own way in life!

Well everyone has pretty much unanimously said what I think, but as an added extra, this is what pisses me off about people who want to live in the most fashionable hip parts of London, but are not prepared to take the rough with the smooth. I have no axe to grind about private education, but

a) if they moved out to the suburbs they may find they don't need it, and

b) if they do need it they should bloody well trade down and fund it themselves.

The phrase 'having your cake and eating it' comes to mind.

If either of my brothers tried a stunt like this, I would not have a problem falling out with them about it.
I would not be able to restrain myself from telling them how greedy and grasping they are to ask this.

I can see why the parents are considering it as it would enable them to do something now for their GC.

But it seems as if there are also things that the couple could do themselves.

Fuming as I would be on the inside, I would focus on the arguments about how it could affect them in later life rather than the potential unfairness to you and middle sis. I would also very strongly encourage them to seek expert legal and financial advice on the potential ramifications later on.

I also wonder if there's any way that the school fees could be paid as they become due and as a 'loan' to your sister, with her repaying over an affordably long period of time, if they have enough regular income to do this (from the flat?) Any outstanding debt being could then be taken out of her equal share when they do die so nobody can be seen to have done better than anyone else however it works out iyswim. Not sure exactly how this would work but might make it more palatable for everyone (apart from big sis!)

Haven't you answered your own question by putting inheritance in inverted comas in the title. She should be waiting until your parents die before she receives anything.

I wouldn't do it for the following reasons:

1. If you parents die within the seven year inheritance tax rule she will obviously need to pay tax. She is likely to say that this is unfair and she should be getting money from the remainder of the estate to compensate. It could all get very messy. Please also consider the IHT you and your middle sister will be paying when your parent's die.

2. Your parents may need to go into a nursing home which could wipe out a very large percentage of you and your middle sister's inheritance.

3. If your parents live for the next 20 odd years. Won't your sister come out with the line of she got much less money from the flat than what you and your sister are getting say in 2030 and as such she should get something! Has she not used a similiar line before?

4. Will your parent's have the heart to exclude your older sister in their revised will? Will they ever get round to actually doing it?

5. Legally could your older sister still make a claim on the inheritance when your parent's die even if she wasn't included in the will? I think children have certain rights even if they aren't named in their parent's will.

6. Potentially you could lose inheritance money if the flat goes up in value at a far greater rate to your parent's house over time.

"if they have enough regular income to do this (from the flat?)"

I had also thought about this, but maybe the parents would want to move into whilst GC are still at school?

I know most other people have said it all...but the over riding thing I'm feeling when I read this is that (to put it very bluntly) an inheritance is only an inheritance when parents havee actually died.
Given that you have no idea how long they will live to and how much care they will need, none of you know how much this will actually end up being.

I've seen a lot of relatives live long lives and require such care, please don't let them leave themselves vulnerable to lack of resources.

Also, inhertiance tax on your sister's share will come out of your share if your parents die before the seven years are up. The amount she was gifted will not be touched (I think I am right about this)

Sounds to me like your parents prob have the same or similar concerns as you Iheart but they are hoping you and your middle sister will take the responsibilty for taking the decision.

Your big sis' sense of entitlement is staggering but as others have said I'd be reluctant to try and persuade your parents either way. As you have mentioned it may be sensible to write down some objective pros and cons and hope they are brave enough to stand up to your sis.

What do you think will be her reaction to them saying no?

The older sister would have to be pay the IHT (on the flat) because the flat was gifted to her, and not the middle and younger sister.

OP, have not read all the posts, but this is my tuppence worth.

Anyone who tries to access their inheritance pre their parents passing is IMO extremely selfish. No one knows how much help someone will need as they get older in terms of care / medical assistance etc.

At the risk of sounding pessimistic, there may not be much of an inheritance left by the time your parents pass. I also think that anyone who bases a lifestyle around an assumed inheritance value is extremely stupid. When my father passed, he wanted to bequeath some of his money directly to my siblings and I. We all refused and said we wanted our mother to have all of his estate incase she ever needed the money, none of us know what the future may hold.

Be honest with your parents and do not allow them to do this. If your sister wants to afford a certain level of lifestyle then it is up to her to earn the money herself and do so. Cheeky mare!