To expect a secondary school teacher to be able to spell? Warning; Long post!

[AddictedToRadley]

Please be gentle with me. If you disagree please say so (that's why I posted here after all) but please don't be rude or nasty as I'm a sensitive soul and take it to heart! Thank you for any/all opinions, they're really appreciated.

I'm genuinely interested in whether my fellow MNetters think I'm being a bit precious or if I'm right in thinking all teachers, especially secondary school teachers, should be able to spell and use good grammar?

My DNiece, 13, showed me her school planner last week as she was proud of the great comments she'd received from her teachers. To cut a long story short she is a troubled child after witnessing some dreadful DV in her younger years (thankfully nothing in past couple of years as her mum left her dad) and has had severe behavioural issues. She is now trying hard and knuckling down but has an educational age far below her real age and needs extra help.

Anyway one of her comments read 'X has been done some Amasing work today'. This is exactly as it read in her planner (X = her name). When I mentioned it to her she didn't think there was anything wrong with the sentence. Her mum wasn't too bothered, well I suppose it's the least of her problems considering the horrors she's recovering from and still occasionally faces, but still...

If a teacher's spelling, grammar and punctuation is that bad and he can't even spell well used, straight forward words then what hope is there for the pupils? Thankfully he is a Science teacher as opposed to an English Language teacher, but I would still have assumed an A Level in English was needed to teach in schools. This is a school with an excellent reputation and pupils travel a long distance, past many other good schools to attend.

So am I being a bit anal about the fact that a science teacher has bad grammar, punctuation and cannot spell words like amazing? Or should all teachers be expected to have good if not excellent English Language skills to be able to teach?

Sorry it's turned into a long post, it was meant to be short but I tend to ramble on!! Maybe I've had too many s for my birthday!

But at least he cared to read it :) ..... and, with any luck, has absorbed some of it to use on an ongoing basis.

Under the new Curriculum for Excellence in Scotland, all teachers (ie *including" Secondary) are now responsible for literacy and numeracy.

It will come as a shock to some of them

But at least he cared enough to read it

I applaud LeQueen.

If teachers are sending out mispelled and ungrammatical letters/comments it looks very sloppy and doesn't fill me with confidence about the general tightness of the ship.

And yes - I want my child to be corrected, even in a science lesson. Perhaps especially in a science lesson where disciplined thinking is essential.

You'll get no argument from me about the need for teachers to be highly competent in maths and literacy, and to have a sound knowledge of other subject areas.
I just disagree with writing on a child's piece of work without sitting down with them and teaching them the correct use of apostrophes.

My entire extended family are anal and picky about it too.

Yes I suppose that's true but perhaps he shouldn't have been able to secure a teaching role with such appalling spelling and grammar? He was a classic case of 'falling into' the job as his first option didn't quite pan out.

But he also has the Magic Y chromosome that helps you up that tricky ladder.
If you know you struggle with speling, all the more reason to use a dictionary and get work proof-read.

My personal problem is practise / practice. So I always run my reports past a colleague first, just to check.

I do always remove errant apostrophes when marking, because it's something of a habit of mine. Since my Saturday job at school (I worked in a greengrocer's!)

Is it really my job to teach 15 year olds how to do plurals, though? Surely someone will have mentioned this to them earlier in their school career?

LeQueen - already said I agree with you, but have to demur on this one point: "If teachers want the salary, benefits and kudos associated with a professional job then kindly do your job to a professional standard. And, if you're struggling with spelling or punctuation, then FFS brush up on it. There is simply no excuse."

teachers do not have professional kudos. I would also argue with benefits and salary. I'm married to an ex-teacher. He went into it for all the right reasons and left mostly because he was treated like an idiot by the senior staff, abused by the pupils and given no respect by the teachers. He is now doing a real professional job and being treated like a professional - it is very very different from being a teacher. Mind you, I still think they should be able to spell and this is a completely different issue, so - as you were.

Jeez - that should be 'given no respect by the parents'. Why oh why does Mumsnet not have an edit function?

It shouldn't be, but I'm old-fashioned.
There is far too much crammed into the primary curriculum and most of us are confused. I've always aimed for literate, numerate, socialised and an enthusiastic learner as my targets.
Not complicated enough for the powers-that-be.

I think they're paid very well.

I have no complaints about the pay and never have.

I don't know, allatsea - there are other jobs I could have gone into, as a graduate, that would be paying me a lot more by now. I think starting salary is pretty good, but it doesn't go up very much from there, if you remain as a classroom teacher.

But if I wanted another job, I'd be doing that instead, I suppose.

How long was your DH a teacher Capreece?
It can be very hard to win respect, more so if you are not seen as competent. Poor spelling and grammar is one of the easiest ways to shoot yourself in the foot.

If I had been there during school hours, I would have gone in search of a teacher. I also would not have done it to a primary school kid's work. However, by secondary school, even the children should know better.

If it generates comment in the school, then so much the btter, because it will probably help ensure that the lesson is learnt.

I was at school in the mid 80s. We were not taught grammar as it was not the "done" thing at that point. I remember one English teacher making a point of doing it in her lessons, and it was seens as a really big deal. When I did my PGCE, I was really concerned about grammar, given that I was going to be teaching English, and made damn sure that I brushed up on it. I've never had issues with spelling. The school I teach in insists that all teachers are teachers of literacy, and we all have to have a literacy "focus" in lessons (even if it's something as small as key words displayed on the board). I think this is essential - students should not think that good spelling, grammar and punctuation are only important in English lessons.

Once you get up the ladder a little the pay is ok, I don't think there is any kudos any more though, sadly. (Mumsnet is often good proof of this.)

DH (a former aerospace engineer with board level management responsibility under this belt) is retraining as a maths teacher at the moment and will be starting on around £23k in the Autumn. I wouldn't say that was a lot for someone of his abilities, but then for a 21 yr old fresh out of university it is good. I suspect DH will start looking for more management roles fairly quickly though.

A friend was here earlier, just doing her NQT. She is on £29K (in London, with Academy bonus) which is ok.

I used to work in recruitment and, believe me, there are lots of lower paid jobs which would not be open to a candidate who wrote "amasing" on the CV. A scientist needs to conduct research and experiments, and then communicate this in the form of research papers and written communication. A scientist who cannot communicate effectively is not a good scientist. And a teacher should certainly be able to communicate effectively. I would be marching into the head teacher's office with that note.

Well said Rebeccaruby! I absolutely agree.

YANBU. Sadly, it seems so common, am despairing. A friend told me yesterday that a C at GCSE English was all that was required to get into teaching. She also told me that apparently that grade does not require proper spelling, nor punctuation,to be used, only the ability to "paragraph" (yes, as a verb [sigh]). IMO the ability to spell basic words, even in a hurry, is not too much to expect from a teacher, of whatever subject.

Agree with you entirely LeQueen.

That reminds me, DH arsed around a little at school and only got a C in English at GCSE...but when he decided he wanted to teach he went back and did it again so he could feel confident in it. He didn't need to, but he wanted to; he got an A bless him.

You have to have a degree to teach, and anywhere worth training needs a decent degree. I would hope that they require a higher level of literacy than is demonstrated by a grade C at GCSE, if not then thatr is equally worrying.