To expect a secondary school teacher to be able to spell? Warning; Long post!

[AddictedToRadley]

Please be gentle with me. If you disagree please say so (that's why I posted here after all) but please don't be rude or nasty as I'm a sensitive soul and take it to heart! Thank you for any/all opinions, they're really appreciated.

I'm genuinely interested in whether my fellow MNetters think I'm being a bit precious or if I'm right in thinking all teachers, especially secondary school teachers, should be able to spell and use good grammar?

My DNiece, 13, showed me her school planner last week as she was proud of the great comments she'd received from her teachers. To cut a long story short she is a troubled child after witnessing some dreadful DV in her younger years (thankfully nothing in past couple of years as her mum left her dad) and has had severe behavioural issues. She is now trying hard and knuckling down but has an educational age far below her real age and needs extra help.

Anyway one of her comments read 'X has been done some Amasing work today'. This is exactly as it read in her planner (X = her name). When I mentioned it to her she didn't think there was anything wrong with the sentence. Her mum wasn't too bothered, well I suppose it's the least of her problems considering the horrors she's recovering from and still occasionally faces, but still...

If a teacher's spelling, grammar and punctuation is that bad and he can't even spell well used, straight forward words then what hope is there for the pupils? Thankfully he is a Science teacher as opposed to an English Language teacher, but I would still have assumed an A Level in English was needed to teach in schools. This is a school with an excellent reputation and pupils travel a long distance, past many other good schools to attend.

So am I being a bit anal about the fact that a science teacher has bad grammar, punctuation and cannot spell words like amazing? Or should all teachers be expected to have good if not excellent English Language skills to be able to teach?

Sorry it's turned into a long post, it was meant to be short but I tend to ramble on!! Maybe I've had too many s for my birthday!

More than 1 mark. Can't remember exactly how many.

It's important though I think, QWC notwithstanding. I know our students lose marks unnecessarily because they just can't express themselves well, and that is only going to be exacerbated when more of their marks depend on longer answers.

I am with you on sulphur. I had this conversation with my year 9s last week

OK. Brushing up on two weeks worth of primary maths is a bit different to sorting out deep seated problems with grammar though I would think. Not that I don't think it matters, I do, but I wouldn't imagine it to be easy. One of my former colleagues was dyslexic, and it was a considerable struggle for her. Science of course was not the issue.

Oh I agree, it is important.

Just not sure how much difference me correcting all their spelling mistakes is going to make. I'd rather write something constructive about how to improve the science.

I don't correct all their spellng mistakes either. I do give them tips on how to improve their writing though, as well as their science of course.

I wouldn't know. I learned it at school and haven't struggled with it since. I have always assumed that some people find it harder than others. That seems to be the way with many things, IM (relevant) E.

It isn't my job to teach spelling and grammar. It is my job to teach science. Were it to seriously impact on my ability to do that (as with your rather irelevant surgeon), then that would be a problem. But I think the impact of a misplaced apostrophe in a science comment is actually fairly minor.

Part of the teaching of any subject relies on good communication skills. If you can't communicate in a clear manner, you can't be sure the students are taking away from your teaching what you expect them to.

So - the comment in the OP, "X has done some Amasing work today" - does it fail to communicate in a clear manner?

Perhaps not, in this case. It's possible to work it out. But I tend to find that most people who often make mistakes with grammar, spelling, syntax and typing tend to do so without discrimination. So although in some situtations the meaning can be inferred, in others it can't, and there is confusion. If they knew how to use the language correctly in the first place, this confusion would not arise (except for the occasions when we all slip up now and then, as we're only human).

...as in this human slip up, where I meant semantics, not syntax. Although syntax was meant too, only not necessary to be covered again.

I do know at least one 'amasing' teacher who cannot spell for toffee.

She's quite severely dyslexic; she's absolutely punctilious about reports, resources, & formal publications to parents - we have admin staff attached to departments, & one of the jobs her dept's admin assistant has is 'check everything K writes before it goes out to students or parents'.

That said, if she wrote an off-the-cuff comment in a student planner, it'd probably resemble the OP's, in terms of spelling if not grammar. & she will be doing that daily - should she not communicate with parents, because her spelling is shambolic?

It is expected that you be reasonably & professionally literate in teaching - LeQ is quite right. But all we can tell from the OP is that a teacher has written an ungrammatical & badly spelled planner comment - we've no idea whether this is typical of the teacher or the school.

FWIW, it sounds far, far too garbled to be representative of any teacher who writes planner comments everyday.

cough It could conceivably be courtesy of a helpful classmate. That does happen...

TheFallenMadonna isn't it every teacher's job to teach spelling and grammar- as well as the content of their subject? I have no doubt you're a dedicated teacher, but of course a misplaced apostrophe from you has an impact, and a failure to pick up on misspelled key words, or misplaced apostrophes in a Science exercise book would send the wrong signal.

I'm quite unlikely to mark up every misplaced apostrophe. I always correct key vocab (all my students have a key vocab list at the start of every topic, and the words are displayed in my classroom too). As I said earlier, I have two major foci for extended writing: the quality of the science content and the quality of the explanation/argument/report. The two are linked IMO, as you can't demonstrate your knowledge of science in writing unless you communicate it effectively. However, the odd dodgy apostrophe really is low impact here.

To go back briefly to the dyslexic issue.....whilst I don't think anyone would be advocating correcting a dyslexic's spelling mistakes every time one was spotted, it's still the case that as far as receptive skills (like reading) are concerned, a dyslexic needs words, and sentences to be written down correctly in order to attribute meaning to them.

So all these teachers (and others) saying it doesn't matter and what about dyslexics,are kind of missing the dyslexic point! Productive skills- over correction would be unkind, receptive skills-the non-dyslexic teacher who is just a bit rubbish at their own native language is actually doing far more harm than good (as far as the dyslexic student is concerned) no matter how brilliant a teacher of their subject they may be.

I genuinely have foreign students whose English language work is far far superior to many native speakers. And that's an absolute disgrace. I work with both EFL and PGCE qualified teachers (and generally prefer to employ the latter, (due to classroom management abilities) but last year I had several complaints about a teacher (PGCE English lit, more than 20 yrs in schools) not "knowing English grammar". The complaint was made by 16 yr old French students and made us look incompetent and absurd.

Yes Fallen, I agree I think on the whole, the odd missing apostrophe isn't going to hurt too much, it's just that when I look at books from across the school I always wonder what the students make of the mixed messages they are getting: that for example, correct spelling doesn't matter in Geography but does in Science, or that paragraphing extended writing seems to matter in English but not in History or whatever (random examples)
I think many students are bright enough to work out that there are different expectations and they still know what to do when it counts, but I think weaker students maybe trying to get apostrophe rules to stick in their heads will be confused as to what they are supposed to do with them- why does Mr X think they go her, but Ms y doesn't...
My biggest bugbear trying to co ordinate literacy around the school are those colleagues who say 'my job is to teach x, your job is to teach them to read and write' as if reading and writing don't have to happen in all subjects. Same colleagues then inevitably appear after the yr 11 mocks- 'can you give my group some help with reading the exam questions?'

go here

YANBU. As a teacher, I think it's important to model good spelling and grammar. I absolutely cringe when I read reports that other teachers have written that are littered with spelling and grammar mistakes. It's embarrassing.

(Apologies if there are any typos here, I'm not so diligent on MN!)

Our school (am a secondary English teacher when not at home with child) is very hot on literacy and numeracy across the curriculum, so every teacher of every subject has to correct spelling, grammar etc. Likewise incorrect sums. Makes perfect sense, how can children learn how to spell etc correctly if they are effectively told that it only matters in English classes? However in Geography it doesn't matter?

It makes me when teachers don't spell or punctuate correctly. If you know you are not great at it, check yourself! I was a Marketing Director before retraining, and would never in a million years have sent out/allowed anything to go out with an error in, and my stuff wasn't going to children we were supposed to be educating. I wouldn't have interviewed anyone for a role, let alone short listed them were their CV to have arrived with a spelling mistake in.

Schools aren't about the teachers, they are about the pupils. This stuff matters, we should be getting it right.

I can see both sides of this.

Personally I loathe poor spelling and grammar and think allowing it to pass uncorrected is likely to leave the child restricted in terms of work opportunities later in life.

However I'm also aware that standardised spelling and grammar has only existed since the 18th century, and further back in the mists of time everyone spelled words however the hell they liked.

It looks as though we're heading back toward a more Elizabethan relationship to the alphabet, and in the grand scheme of things there are probably more important things to worry about.

And yet, I still think bad spelling and grammar is a major disadvantage in many walks of life, and if teachers are trying to help children fulfil their potential they should insist on it. So I think on balance I'm with NinkyNonker and LeQueen on this.