to think that anynoe who believes in star signs is a complete numpty?

[bettybosseye]

I mean it's so clearly such a great stinking heap of horse shit, how can anyone actually believe it?
Another mum at playgroup today was telling me what kind of personality my 9 month old will have based solely on her star sign.
All pleasant enough stuff but she actually believed it.
What's wrong with people?

I am a totally anti-woo, pro-science, rationalist type BUT enjoy reading the horoscopes despite knowing it's shite. Like Cokefan I read them all, and pick the ones I like. It's quite interesting how each one is usually spookily relevant to something that's going on in my life. :o

I did see one famous astrologer I think Jonathan Cainer (?) being interviewed about it and he was extremely vague and reading between the lines he seemed to be saying it was all a bit of fun and obviously nonsense - though he was avoiding offending any fans who actually believe in it.

Anyway re acupuncture - there do seem to be various studies giving it some credibility, and when I had it, I did feel that it was effective. Basically it seemed to me to work by stimulating nerves ? when the needle went in, I could feel the whole nerve pathway (up my arm/shoulder) tingling and warming, and after a few treatments my frozen shoulder was better (when no previous treatments had fixed it).

Obviously a trial of one is meaningless but I'm just throwing that into the mix. As I said I am so not Mrs Woo and have no time for crystal healing and hopi ear candles whatnot.

Buzz - re "if you got rid of everything in medicine that was both ["definitively proven or adequately explained"] you wouldn't have that much left!"

Err.. no. You would actually have the whole body of western medicine left.

No medicine makes it to the market for public consumption until it is not only adequately explained but rigorously tested first on animals, then on humans. This process takes many years. Any surprises following a medicine's clearance for public consumption are fortunately very rare.

The think is that any alternative medicine that works is, in fact, medicine!

Herbalism is indeed medicine. Just with added woo and bollocks: the gullible think that their medicine is somehow more effective if it stinks and comes in a funny looking bottle rather than in the form of a plain white pill from Boots.

what I mean is there are a lot of things in modern medicine that we don't know exactly how and why they work. Take anti-depressents for example, there are only theories about the action they have, how they effect 5ht receptors and so on. This is true of a lot of medicines and treatments. You'd be surprised how much of modern medicine is still conjecture and guess work.

Yes they are all tested. But that doesn't mean they are fully explained.

No medicine makes it to the market for public consumption until it is not only adequately explained

I'm not sure that's strictly true. There's lots of drugs on the market whose mechanism was only investigated after they were on the market. Nowadays, drug design is more targetted so you have some idea what's going on from the start (eg what enzyme you're inhibiting) but that can't have been the case for earlier drugs which were often discovered somewhat serendipitously. (I'm thinking benzodiazepines)

I still use carageen moss and its pretty cheap. Works wonders for a sore throat, even if it does taste like vile sewage water.

and many drugs are used "off-label" for things they were never intended to do, and some go on to be retested and marketed for that. They don't always bother though, and its a very long list if drugs that are used in this way.

yes since it originates here in Ireland I expect we get it cheaply and easily. You can make a blancmange with it if you wanted to torture yourself further.

I've always read "alternative medicine" as basically synonymous with "NOT medicine".

If it works, it gets scientifically tested, proved, accepted. It becomes medicine. If it doesn't work, then none of that happens.

Having said that, it all rather depends what we mean by "does it work". Homeopathy, crystal healing, or any other load of twaddle you can dream up - they usually get better results compared to doing nothing.

Placebos work (a bit). And alternative medicine usually dresses the process up in so much ritual and bollocks that the placebo effect is a little bit stronger.

So whereas I know I am right to say it is bollocks and that the hippy next door is talking crap, maybe she is happier and healthier as a result of being such a f*ing idiot.

The thing is though some things will always be in the process of making it to official medicine status ? like acupuncture at the moment.

And, because of the placebo effect, a lot of things that are not medicine will "work". Someone who basically needs a bit of TLC and attention/understanding could gain a lot from a homeopathic consultation and it could maybe cure a symptom such as stress headaches or anxiety. So it doesn't work, but it does - but not in a way that makes it "medicine".

"The thing is though some things will always be in the process of making it to official medicine status ? like acupuncture at the moment."

Not crystal therapy or pendulums won't. And at the risk of offending people, neither will homeopathy. And, at a risk of offending even more poeple I suspect the real use of alternative therapies in medicine is to create somewhere for doctors to pass on their worried well while they get on with dealing with real ill people.

The thing about homeopathy and its ilk working as a placebo is fine until you get to the point where people use that guff instead of real medicine, thats where it gets dangerous. And people do, for mild stuff and for serious stuff. People have died from a reliance on sham medicine like homeopathy.
I think legislation should be brought in so that they can't label it as medicine or push it as a cure for anything.

I think you're probably right seeker.

But would you rather be right, or would rather be happy/healthy?

Faced with some hippy idiot talking complete bollocks, what is the ethical thing to do? Explain the truth? Or leave them to believe a pack of lies that makes them happier?

It's probably a similar question to one Dawkins comes across a lot. Why educate people if makes them unhappy?

"Why educate people if makes them unhappy?"

Because it's not just about individuals. It's about the sort of society wa want to live in.

Why educate them? Heres why

It's probably a similar question to one Dawkins comes across a lot. Why educate people if makes them unhappy?

Because we're human and ignorance is not bliss.

I get your point buzz and while I believe in some and infact advocate other alternative remedies, if I need to get a prescription medicine I will, however, can they not go side by side in some instances? For example my family gp is also a homeopathy practitioner and will if requested dispense homeopathic remedies but not to the detriment of your health.

I don't understand how a GP can be a homeopathic practitioner. Why would you prescribe water or sugar pills to people if you have a medical degree?