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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that anynoe who believes in star signs is a complete numpty?

678 replies

bettybosseye · 01/02/2011 18:52

I mean it's so clearly such a great stinking heap of horse shit, how can anyone actually believe it?
Another mum at playgroup today was telling me what kind of personality my 9 month old will have based solely on her star sign.
All pleasant enough stuff but she actually believed it.
What's wrong with people?

OP posts:
lenak · 02/02/2011 19:22

Cote your post at 12:44 was extremely rude and personally offensive. Let's have a look at what you said shall we:

^?people have borrowed this book and everyone single one was surprised by the accuracy?

Because of selective perception and our talent for pattern recognition. In other words, people recognize the bits that seem relevant and disregard the rest, especially if they want to believe, like anyone who would read a book on their children?s star signs in the first place.^

Quite - which is why I said after that little anecdote that no-one took it particularly seriously and it was just a bit of fun. I also said in my first line that I didn't think that the alignment of the planets actually impacted on our day to day lives.

There is no such thing as a ?metaphysical world?

Grin I'm sorry, but you call me an idiot? You do realise that metaphysics is a legitimate branch of philosophy right? That it deals with ideas of being, free will and determinism amongst many many others and that there is a huge crossover between physics and metaphysics, particularly in relation to the Einstein's theory of relativity (and in particular Relativity of simultaneity).

Einstein himself had some very well thought out views on the subject concluding in his 1944 work "Ideas and Opinions" that "It finally turns out that one can, after all, not get along without metaphysics."

But then again, perhaps you thought I meant metaphysics in the way it is used to mean spiritual? Understandable I suppose if you haven't read Kant. Incidently, the popular use of metaphysical to mean spiritual comes from an interpretation error by Latin scholars of the titles given to Aristotles books on First Philosophy by his publisher.

^?We know that the moon physically impacts on both the planet (tides) ... due to magnetic forces and light etc?

Tides are due to moon?s gravity, you dingbat. Moon doesn?t have a rotating metal inner core like the earth so no significant magnetic field of its own. What little magnetic properties it has are due to its passing through the earth?s magnetic field.^

So I used the wrong word because I was dredging knowledge up from school science - I know that the moon affects the tides - I don't really care whether it is magnetic or gravitational.

^There is no such ?fact?, except the gravitational pull that all objects exert on each other depending on their mass and distance. This pull does not determine character traits of babies at the moment of their birth and it is categorically numptastic to believe that it does."

Never said it did. I said we cannot know whether it has any other kind of influence - I've re-checked my post and I certainly didn't state any specific kinds of influence.

Are you aware that Isaac Newton wrote more about the Occult in his lifetime than he did about physics and when he was alive this was primarily what he was known for in his early career. When he first postulated about an invisible force that could act over vast distances he was accused of introducing the occult into science. Understandable really - an invisible force that exerts influence over vast distances?

Imagine if gravity had not been explained yet and someone posted on here that they believed in an invisible force that all object have an exert on each other - you'd probably be rude to them too!

Scientists accept that there is a lot we don't know or understand about the universe (so gawd knows why it is so wrong for me to suggest it) - it is why they have built the LHC. When Fritz Zwicky first proposed the existence of Dark Matter in the 1930's his peers thought he was a bit mad - turns out he was correct - although its existence was not proven until 2009. However he also theorized that there were nuclear goblins, that planets could be swapped around in the solar system and that the solar system could be used as a giant space ship (so perhaps he was a bit mad - he was still brilliant).

You know that acupuncture is proven to be no better than placebo and you think that is a good thing? Woman, is there no limit to your ignorance? This means it has no effect except in the mind of its believers. You might as well pray for the pain to go away.

You missed a bit when you quoted me - I said it was proven to help nausea and some kinds of pain but was thought to be a placebo for other ailments. Acupuncture (and accupressure) has been found to be particularly effective in combating vommiting and nausea in conjunction with anti-sickness meds after chemotherapy - the two in combination seem to be more effective than anti-sickness meds alone. It is accepted that more study is needed of course, but the simple fact is that at the moment there is enough evidence of its validity for both Cancer Research UK and the American Cancer Society to highlight it as a possible complimentary treatment for someone undergoing cancer treatment.

As far as other ailments go - even if it is only a placebo affect - if it helps people does it matter?

Anecdotal only, but my DH had a really nasty whiplash injury that was never treated. His neck was incredibly painful and clicked loudly whenever he turned it from side to side. The doctor tried everything - physio, laser treatment - he was even tested for Rheumatoid Arthritis because none of the treatments seemed to be working. The amount of pain killers he was taking scared me, so as a last resort I dragged him to a Chinese herbalist. One course of Acupuncture and he has been pain free ever since.

DH's dad had a massively painful back for 30 years after breaking it in a car accident. He coped with it all that time, only having periodic bouts of not being able to walk. He went through a particularly bad bout where he couldn't walk more than 10 meters without near collapsing. His doctor sent him for NHS acupuncture (which was just being trialled at the time). Afterwards, although not completely pain free, he could walk without problem and said he was in less pain than he had been for the past 30 years.

Maybe both were placebo affects, maybe not, but given the positive impact it had on everyone's life I don't really care how it worked - I just care that it did.

^?Knowledge is cyclical?

That has to be one of the top five most ridiculous statements ever on MN, and that is against some competition. Like, all we learned about the world and the universe in the past 100 years was already known? Because, what, some stargazer shaman told you so?^

Really - ridiculous is it. Look up the antikythera mechanism and explain to me how someone built what was essentially an astronomical clock 1000 years before that knowledge is thought to have been discovered.

There is also evidence in archeology - the ancient Babylonians, Greeks and Romans had immense knowledge - there is evidence that they had a real understanding of the planets and the solar system (stone henge, the pyramids) and yet between the decline of their civilisations and the Renaissance we believed the world was flat and that the sun moved around us. Massive amounts of their knowledge was lost. Some has since been re-discovered but there is no way of knowing whether we are discovering things for the first time or whether they knew it first and that knowledge was lost. It is pretty arrogant, given their brilliance, to assume that we are discovering everything for the first time.

Knowledge moves and changes, ideas come, go and come back again. Ideas that are thought to be scientific truth are dismissed then picked up again as science moves on. This can be seen everyday at the micro level - how often does the advice on what to do with babies change and then change back again - weaning for example. Why is it such a leap to also think that can happen on a much wider scale, over centuries or millenia?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with only believing in what science can prove if that's what you want to do - but there is absolutely no need to disparage other people for believing differently. It is imagination and belief in the impossible that leads to new scientific discoveries in the first place and debate is useful and helpful. Rudeness is not.

lenak · 02/02/2011 19:34

Italics didn't work - all the text with around it are quotes from Cote.

MardyBra · 02/02/2011 20:00
reluctanthomosapien · 02/02/2011 20:10

GORGEOUS, gosh, no, my parents mooted the arranged marriage thing but it never happened (long story). I married a red headed anglo-saxon, he's just like you, gorgeous! And we do not have star signs that are remotely compatible!

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 02/02/2011 20:16

I don't see any suggestion that the Antikythera mechanism was any kind of clock - it appears to have been a mechanism for automating astronomical calculations using methoids that the Greeks were quite competant at. Indeed, without being able to do these calculations you can't to Astrology.

The automation is a little surprising as they didn't tend to go in for it, mainly due to being a slave owning society.

The Babylonians/Greeks/Romans all had HUGE holes in their knowledge. In Maths for isntance, the lack of a modern concept of zero or decimals meant that all sums were done as fractions and arithmetic was complex. This is why all Greek mathematical proof are based on geometry for instance.

Without these tools , they couldn't (and we know they didn't) have accurate methods for performing astronomy, engineering or anything else.

We know for certain that they didn't have Newtonian or Einsteinian classical physics or Quantum mechanics for instance as they just didn't have the maths.

Pretty much noone ever believed the earth was flat en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

And certainly from the Greeks onwards there is a pretty continuous chain of knowledge transfer. The Dark Ages were only dark in Europe. The Arab world and china continued scholarship throughout this period.

We know VASTLY more than the Babylonians, Greeks and Romans did about pretty much everything.

Ideas do come and go - but not in some kind of cycle - that is the nature of science.

TiggyD · 02/02/2011 20:36

YABU...

...for not including aroma therapy, crystal crap, homoeopathy, and all religions.

ItsGraceAgain · 02/02/2011 21:07

I've only read the first and last pages of this thread but am going to have to read all the rest now! Work? Housework? Sleep? Pah! Matters of infinite importance are at stake here!

Loving your metaphysical post, lenak. Science gets ever more fascinating as it reaches the mysterious depths of antimatter, dark matter and matter that is no matter but matters enormously (like housework?), not to mention multiple simultaneous existence. And - unrelatedly - I'm sure somebody has pointed out that not only do women's menstrual cycles synchronise when they live together, but over time they will synchronise with the full moon? (nazi research, can't fault it for empiricism)

Above all: this thread prompted me to visit cainer.com for the first time in ages. Jonathan says it's a good year for pisces. So I'm back on the hooey! Go horoscopes (as long as mine's good) Grin

GORGEOUSX · 02/02/2011 21:12

reluctant LOL - glad to hear it. I too married out of my culture - don't want to give myself away on MN, so won't say more than that, but well done to us for marrying two gorgeous men! (Mine was more to do with his bank-balance than his star-sign) Wink

thewook · 02/02/2011 21:42

I'm a believer! Well, kind of.. not in newspaper horsoscopes, but natal charts can be just spooky and astrologers such as Michael Lutin and Neil Spencer take a good approach to it all I think, slightly ironic but still intrigued.
I miss Neil Spencer in the Observer but his monthly forecasts are worth a look, and Michael Lutin is funny, and quite uncanny at times.

Poets like Yeats, Ted Hughes and Sylvia Plath loved all the symbolism and metaphors- what's not to like about all the layers of meaning..

Why not? It's a belief that many have had through the ages... who does it harm really? Does it stop us believing in Science and progress, not really- too much cold rationality is as bad as too much dreamy mysticism, room for both.

And my Scorpio daughter is a crazy little powerhouse!!

Frizzbonce · 02/02/2011 21:43

I loved the definition of feng shui as: 'The ancient Chinese art of separating middle class people from their money.'

Abr1de · 02/02/2011 21:57

I'm with edam on this one. I'm puzzled as to why acupuncture has been associated with astrology. You don't have to be a woo believer to benefit from needles being stuck in you.

StuffingGoldBrass · 02/02/2011 22:42

Acupuncture, like all woo remedies, works on people who are either gullible, desperate, or have something wrong that's going to get better anyway.

As I said, while the whole lot is complete bollocks, be it Jesus, Allah, Father Christmas or that Stonehenge was built as a giant horoscope machine, the people who believe in all the farty fluffy pointless woo as opposed to the organised religions which are primarily forms of social control, are generally a bit less antisocial in their outlook and while they might bore you with their wilful ignorance and silly insistence that any old cock someone's just sold them is 'The Twooth' they are a lot less likely to become violent or resort to litigation when confronted with the mockery they deserve.

edam · 02/02/2011 22:55

SGB, afraid you are plain wrong on that one. Go and read the Nice guidelines. I used to work with expert reviewers of medical evidence, btw, I do happen to know what I'm talking about. (On this topic, at least!)

Laugh at astrology all you like but acupuncture is not in the same category at all. (Never had it myself, btw, but if I had persistent low back pain or needed a knee replacement I'd certainly give it a go. Knee replacements are ruddy tricky and often go badly, while acupuncture seems to relieve pain and aid mobility without leaving people permanently disabled.)

emmy56 · 02/02/2011 22:59

OMG I can't be reading all 11 pages. I was a bit miffed to read recently that I'm not in fact a Capricorn (moody miserable type) and that everything has changed and I'm now an Aquarius. Twas enough for me to think was a total pile of twoddle.

emmy56 · 02/02/2011 22:59

Sorry not aquarius but sagitarius. That's how much I know about it!

kikid · 02/02/2011 23:05

Lamorna, i too believe in the basic blue print of characteristics for the different signs. I wonder where all the believers are!!
I think it's like religion the believers & non believers...

I often wonder what peoples signs are when i meet them.
I take offence that believers are seen as uneducated halfwits.

I think people get confused with the silly columns in magazines & astrology!

Snorbs · 02/02/2011 23:12

edam, what limited studies there were that suggest a slightly-better-than-placebo result for acupuncture (and for a limited range of conditions) showed just as much of an effect for "sham" acupuncture. ie, merely prodding the skin with a toothpick at random points was shown to be just as effective in reducing lumbar pain as inserting needles at specific points where the chi flows (or whatever mystical crap-trap is used to back it up).

That to me suggests very strongly that needles being inserted into the skin aren't necessary. And, maybe, all it does show is that there are differing levels of the placebo effect that are dependent on how much effort you put in to fooling the patient. Which is hardly news, is it?

balloonballs · 02/02/2011 23:15

nazi research, can't fault it for empiricism

It's got to be said that, while it may have been empirical, this research was conducted on emaciated malnourished women.

It should not be cited as a reliable indication of menstrual cycles in healthy women.

I am not getting into whether it should be cited at all.

serant · 02/02/2011 23:16

op yabvu, numpty' can believe in anything they want.

edam · 02/02/2011 23:20

As I metioned, same could be said for many conventional medicines. When new drugs are first released, there are always loads of studies showing they are fab, fab, fab. Ten years down the line there are loads of studies showing they are barely better than placebo. Partly down to publication bias, of course.

Btw, as far as I understand it, there are different schools of acupuncture, and they don't all go on about chi (although presumably they all stem from that original idea). My local primary care trust funds an acupuncture clinic for elderly patients with bad knees - they fund this because it saves them money as fewer of the patients who receive acupuncture go on to have knee surgery. Which is a. expensive and b. often doesn't have great results for patients, even when the op is a technical success.

In the end what matters to a person in pain is 'is the pain removed or more bearable?' Often conventional medicines can help here but they may have unpleasant (or dangerous) side effects, or not be a complete solution. Acupuncture may be helpful as one choice amongst others - at least you won't get a GI bleed.

edam · 02/02/2011 23:23

NICE guidance link on this page. Says the NHS should offer exercise programmes, manual therapy or acupuncture. The NICE review of the evidence suggests they are equally valid options.

alicatte · 02/02/2011 23:26

Leos are definitely the best and they should live in an east/west facing house with a south east facing door and appropriate decor including a bagua. I live in North London - its just plain everyday up here. Did I mention the Kabbalah and the red cord of Rachel (or is it Elizabeth, or Ruth - bit sketchy on that one, although I do, of course, wear one). Then there is ...

StuffingGoldBrass · 02/02/2011 23:37

The other reason this crapola 'works' is that its practitioners generally have more time to spend (er, because they are charging the patients a lot) listening sympathetically and spouting reassuring guff.

BuzzLightBeer · 03/02/2011 00:20

You can't lump acupunture in with homeopathy and all that bollocks, acupuncture has been scientifically evaluated many times and has been found to have real medical value. I'm not talking Woo magazine but the BMJ, NIH, the WHO. This is not bunkum, its science.

Snorbs · 03/02/2011 07:16

If acupuncture is not bunkum, how come sham acupuncture - where no piercing of the skin is performed - has been shown to be just as effective?

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