to go of a friend who has just been on a sex tourist trip to Thailand?

[Hairyjumper]

Single male friend, just been on 2 weeks holiday where he paid women to fuck him.
Have had quite a cerebral discussion with him about it.
He says it is not seedy , no pimps blah blah.

I thought I was open minded but it just seems wrong.

This isn't a thread about the UK sex industry.
Personally though, I would think exactly the same about a man paying for sex anywhere .
It's wrong, full stop.

this isn't about the UK, MrSpoc

if you are so interested in the UK meat market, go and look up one of the many threads on escorts in the UK

Pleased to see we're putting the focus on the predatory, abusing rapist for a change instead of the women prostituted for his 'entertainment'. OF COURSE IT'S WRONG! Your first reaction was absolutely correct. This idiot thinks he has a right to go wherever he needs to go until he finds a woman desperate/deluded enough to give him what he wants. He doesn't.

YANBU, the sex trade in Asia is absolutely appalling and unfortunately, it's everywhere.

The girls do it because they usually have no choice. It brings in a high salary, much more than they would have if they did farming or other jobs. A girl gets 1,000 baht per customer if she has sex with him. This is far more than she would get from doing an "average" job in a rural area.

The girls know what to say to their customers and would never say they have a pimp. Most men go to have sex with a very young girl or boy and nobody cares if they are treated badly by their customers or not. A former acquaintance of mine who was on holiday in Thailand and had a one night stand with an older foreigner. After they finished, he asked her if she was 18 yet She was 25, but this just goes to show how these men are. They want a good time and they know they can do what they like and everything will be ok. It really is disgusting.

There are also people who go around and show pictures to foreigners of little girls/boys for them to choose from... I've seen motorbike and cyclo drivers in Vietnam asking customers if they want "boom boom" and some even exploit their own wives or other women in their family to earn extra money. Women have little say in Asia and men are like kings. It's very sad, but true.

I would judge a man who paid for sex anywhere, tbh.

Does anyone remember the 20 year old Vietnamese girl who had to marry a mentally ill man from South Korea... He killed her the first week she was there, for something stupid like not wanting to eat Korean food...

"Mail order brides" are very common in Asia. They are submissive, clean house and cook and the men can do what they like with them...

And many of them are very young girls...

Here is the article from the VietnamNet Bridge about this young girl. She was killed after 1 week.

english.vietnamnet.vn/reports/201007/Vietnamese-woman-murdered-after-one-week-by-Korean-husband-922151/

OP: For what it's worth, I think some of the extreme comments posted here display a similar lack of continence to that shown by your friend. There is also a style of sophistry on display of the same kind he will, no doubt, have exercised on his own conscience in order to justify his behaviour to himself.

You need to decide for yourself whether he is worth keeping as a friend but, whether you do or not, it is worth pointing out to him that even if he confines himself to having sex with a grown woman when he visits places like Thailand, he cannot know her personal circumstance sufficiently well to know the extent to which she is freely giving consent. There are varying degrees of coercion to which she could be subject that he may not know about. Even if she is not subject to coercion (in the sense that we would normally use the term), there is a broader cultural and economic context which compromises her ability to exercise a free choice (in the sense we normally use that expression). Because he has so many advantages compared to her, the relationship cannot really be considered as anything other than exploitative. The fact that a great many people in Thailand are very poor, the woman he having sex with is almost certainly from that class, and he is paying, all rather give the game away. Furthermore, he should reflect on the extent to which he is involving himself with a local 'sex industry' that will almost certainly has some very nasty aspects. He is unlikely to be able to judge whether or not there is a connection between his own activities and these aspects and, given that he is unable to judge, he should stay well out of it. In the best-case scenario, he is lowering his own dignity and the dignity of the person he is having sex with by paying for it.

In all probability telling him he is a rapist is likely to make him upset and angry because he will consider this to be an absurd and unjust description because, in all probability, it is. That will probably make it less likely he will examine his behaviour and see that it was wrong. It is possible he will consider such an attitude to be characteristic of an unsympathetic female response and the next time he goes to Thailand he will seek out an even more vulnerable female and will take it out on her. It is unfortunate, but that is also an aspect of how human beings work - men and women.

If he wants to be a sex tourist there are plenty of unattached first-world women who hope to include some great sex in their holiday experience. Perhaps you could help him do some research into likely destinations give him some tips on how to get laid.

'Perhaps you could help him do some research into likely destinations give him some tips on how to get laid.'

He'll need it once women find out he's a skank who uses prossies, because most will run a mile from that.

I think you'd be surprised the men that will go with these girls/women. Many are just 'normal' men who do it cos it's there and they seem to think it's accepted or the norm there or that they are even doing these girls a favour by being nice to them and paying them well. They aren't all sex tourists jetting in a for a week with this specifically on their agenda. You seem to be painting them all as rapists or pedophiles (some are of course) which isn't accurate IMO and does the cause no favours. You think many of your husbands/brothers/boyfriends wouldn't do it if out there and having a drink with their mates or on business. By describing them as such you are ruining your chance to have a reasoned debate with them as they'd think you are a screeching harpy. These guys need to be educated to the realities of this horrible business - many think no further than their dick and turn a blind eye. I knew a group of women who went to Bangkok for the weekend and went to a sex show which then got out of hand and they realised they were out there comfort zone - just respectable married women. Many women and men are tempted in to have a look , my husband and I were invited 'in' - we were in no way interested. My husband was taken to a sex show by his work when they were there on business - i'll just have to trust him that nothing else happened. The whole business doesn't just revolve round the sad old perverts (they wouldn't listen and hopefully the police will catch up with them)- the 'ordinary' folk are the ones you need to catch with the true plight of these sex workers and try to break the illusion that is normal and part of life there.

expatinscotland: "He'll need it once women find out he's a skank who uses prossies, because most will run a mile from that."

Hopefully he will become a man who does not use prossies because he knows why he should not. That should help him and any future women he meets. You are right that if he no longer visits prostitutes it may be best to keep quiet about these past failings. We all do that, I think.

"In all probability telling him he is a rapist is likely to make him upset and angry because he will consider this to be an absurd and unjust description because, in all probability, it is. That will probably make it less likely he will examine his behaviour and see that it was wrong. It is possible he will consider such an attitude to be characteristic of an unsympathetic female response and the next time he goes to Thailand he will seek out an even more vulnerable female and will take it out on her. It is unfortunate, but that is also an aspect of how human beings work - men and women.

If he wants to be a sex tourist there are plenty of unattached first-world women who hope to include some great sex in their holiday experience. Perhaps you could help him do some research into likely destinations give him some tips on how to get laid"

Are you saying that it's the OP's fault if he goes on to rape a female child or maim a young woman or even kill?

And that it is her responsibility to teach him how to have casual sex?

Unbelievable.

Begonyabampot, you wouldn't be surprised at the men who would go with these women.

They are generally men who express fuckwitted opinions about women, which are generally not challenged because theyr'e one of the lads, good bloke type etc.

Decent intelligent men do not accidentally find themselves paying to have sex with women. They know it's wrong and their antennae go off when someone approaches them who they realise might be involved in the sex industry. The ones who find themselves getting drawn into it, are the ones who have a very low opinion of women in the first place.

Your solution - to make men aware of the evils of the sex trade - is good in theory, but in practice, men who want to use prostitutes, will always rationalise that the one they used, was the one who wasn't coerced. A better solution would be to teach all our children and adults, that women are fully human too and deserve to be treated as full human beings. But that's not going to happen any time soon.

let's help this man to have casual sex with some 1st world women, so he won't go back and take out his anger at being unjustly accused on some poor coerced girls....

jesus fucking wept, andre, you are a strange fish

Mists - I think you are reading too much into Andre's post there. I thought his post was pretty thoughtful.

As for the man we are discussing here, I wonder how the OP would feel if he had done the same thing in this country.

I have come across men in my peer group who wouldn't dream of using a prostitute in this country but abroad it's fine. Here - it's seedy! But in another country - well, why not? Because, of course, exploiting a woman in this country is so very different to exploiting a woman in another country....

OP - your friend still paid for sex. I find it interesting that your initial instinct was to feel repulsed (or is that too strong) by what he did. I realise that it's uncomfortable having to see your friend in a different light and it's much more preferable to convince yourself (or let him convince you) that it was all harmless. I have been in this situation myself with male friends and it is disappointing knowing that they are capable of this kind of behaviour.

I'd remember that gut instinct you had when he told you about what he did. And I'm sure he'll do something similar again; perhaps he'll visit a strip club or visit Thailand again. At some point, when you can't keep ignoring that uncomfortable feeling you had when he first told you about what he'd done, you might find his "friendship" unpalatable to you.

Mists "Are you saying that it's the OP's fault if he goes on to rape a female child or maim a young woman or even kill?"

I am not saying that at all. I strongly believe that we are all responsible for our own behaviour. He is responsible for his, OP is responsible for hers and you are responsible for yours. What I am saying is that: -

a) Most of us are more forgiving of ourselves than others.
b) Most of us have our explanations and excuses, feel we are justified in our actions and that other people should understand.
c) There are ways we can help each other, and some ways are more effective than others.

Sometimes we need to give up on people because they are a danger to us and all we can sensibly do is protect ourselves from them. Most people are not like that.

I am not conventionally religious but there is a line from scripture which says something like, 'as ye judge, so shall ye be judged.' I try to consider this when I'm feeling judgemental.

I agree with mists

I still think you get a lot of men who will do it in the East/Asia even if just a one off or they were pissed - who would never dream of going with a prostitute back home. The marketing is very persuasive. A bit like when i was young on holiday and we did stuff and took risks i never would have done back home - the same kind of mindset is in play here too. I just think saying every guy is a rapist or pedophile or sex tourist is unhelpful and will turn them off from listening to any valid debate on the topic.

if I ever find myself paying someone to have access to their body, I shall remind myself of that

beg...they are not interested in debate....they just want to fuck young boys and girls

No I don't think I am reading too much into it, I may have highlighted bits which stood out to me but I don't think I have misinterpreted its meaning, sadly.

As long as the responsibility for violence against women rests with the victims or the victim class, what hope is there?

I took it as meaning that there are plenty of consenting adults out there who would happily oblige for no payment rather than paying an exploited woman for sex who obviously doesn't want to do it otherwise she wouldn't be charging.

Which is what this man should be doing - i.e. trying to find a willing partner - rather than someone whose circumstances and background he knows nothing of and who he has to pay.

Unless I have misinterpreted it but that was how I read it.

"I am not conventionally religious but there is a line from scripture which says something like, 'as ye judge, so shall ye be judged.' I try to consider this when I'm feeling judgemental"

I think about that line too with regard to trivial differences of opinions and ordinary matters.

But not when it comes to actual rapists and child abusers.

It's to do with human rights as I see it. If you are willing to disregard someone else as a human being then perhaps you should have yours compromised in return.

But none of the people we are talking about on this thread are having to face any consequences other than internet sprites like me judging them, poor things

A quote from a very good article published in the Independent today, here

I thought of this thread.

"If we are to beat, or at least stem, the virus of sexism, more women ? particularly younger women ? will need to wake up and shape up, and no, I don't mean go on a diet. Too many are choosing to keep shut, to accept insults, join in with mortifying jokes, play the game and even tolerate discrimination for a quiet life, or maybe for the rewards that come to those who do not rock boats or talk back. Male chauvinists carry on because the victims of their contempt let them."

We need to tell these men what we think of their behaviour rather than condone it as "just a bit thick".

Fantastic quote, Jess