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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to go of a friend who has just been on a sex tourist trip to Thailand?

457 replies

Hairyjumper · 29/01/2011 01:18

Single male friend, just been on 2 weeks holiday where he paid women to fuck him.
Have had quite a cerebral discussion with him about it.
He says it is not seedy , no pimps blah blah.

I thought I was open minded but it just seems wrong.

OP posts:
AlwaysbeOpralFruitstome · 31/01/2011 22:07
sums up men like your friend's attitude to women.

I couldn't ever look at him again in the same way but if your happy to overlook the fact that he is a class A narcissistic prick then carry on.

I was actually looking for a link to a docu about a sex hotel in Thailand. It was really interesting as the film makers had managed to get 'back stage' access to the girls and the contrast in their behaviour with the Johns and when on their own was stark. They were repulsed by most of them and where forever trying to find reasons to NOT have the sex that they were pretending to be gagging for.

There was one girl who was 'in love' with her John. She was very young (although legal) and was hoping that this guy would sweep her off her feet and rescue her from the job. He didn't. And it came as no surprise to any of the other more experienced girls who had all been there and tried to warn her. Poor, por girls.

dittany · 31/01/2011 22:18

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HerBeX · 31/01/2011 22:22

Someone's post about how your gut feel was that this is shit, OP and now you are persuaded that actually it's ok, alerted/ interested me.

Women are constantly being told that our instant reactions are wrong. We're always being told that finding sth uncomfortable, not quite right, discomfiting, is just us being prudish or uptight or judgemental or some such.

And it works. Most of us back down on our gut instincts when faced with a barrage of ridicule and opposition, or emotional blackmail from friends ("you have to stop feeling like this because it offends/ hurts/ upsets *me.e.e.e.ee..eee")

There lies cognitive dissonance...

dittany · 31/01/2011 22:22

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hester · 31/01/2011 22:58

HJ, is this man your dp?

I'm sure he is gentle and kind and intelligent. I'm sure he is completely convinced he did nothing wrong. But bottom line: this isn't about him, his motivations and his interpretation of what happened. This is about the woman he abused. (There is no way I can think of it as anything but abuse, sorry.)

I'm just doing some work on the psychology of slavery, and the similarities between some of the arguments used in defence of that, and some of the arguments used on this thread (and elsewhere) in defence of paying for sex, are stomach-churning.

As women in the UK, it is often hard to see how we can help abused women elsewhere. Well, this is one way: we can absolutely refuse to tolerate or excuse men we know who pay for sex, here or overseas. For me, this falls in the same category as being friends with someone who uses child pornography, or is actively racist, or bashes their partner: absolutely no way.

Andre1960 · 31/01/2011 23:30

Dittany You wrote:

"Yes that's right. The posts here are exactly the same as going off to Thailand to pay to rape the locals."

Your piety lacks humility and is therefore vanity. It is the same vanity, albeit directed to a different end, that allowed OP's friend to act as he did. The end matters less than you think. You would need a deeper insight than I think you possess to see this.

dittany · 31/01/2011 23:40

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AnyFucker · 31/01/2011 23:41

hester, I too questioned near the beginning of this thread, if this bloke was in fact, the OP's partner

perhaps they had been split for a while, and she was considering taking him back, but he had confessed to this

or that he had gone on a "lads holiday" (makes me spit to type it) and she had found out some other way

she has disappeared though, so we will never know

hester · 31/01/2011 23:58

I can understand why she's not posting. I hope she's still reading and thinking, though.

Best o luck, OP. Do the right thing.

TyraG · 01/02/2011 07:25

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but just because your friend didn't see a pimp, doesn't mean there wasn't one.

Andre1960 · 01/02/2011 12:28

dittany: "The end was that this man and so many men like him was that he went to Thailand to commit rape. Yes that end matters. Only a fool and a moral imbecile would think differently."

I think it is difficult to argue with you because you are so uncompromising and see things in such black and white terms. Some of the time that is helpful but most of time it's not. I am not a fool or a moral imbecile. We have a different perspective, that is all.

The ends matter a great deal, but so do the means. There is a perfectly respectable tradition in moral philosophy that argues that the means determine the end. It is argued that, in a very real sense, the means are the end in human life. For most of the time in most lives this is true. In consideration of this, and because the means are the only things we have full control over, we had better attend to them. This is something that is worth reflecting on deeply.

Those you disapprove of most do not reflect on this question. They are very much of the 'means justify the end' school of thought.

"You could only say that if you really didn't give a shit about rape and a global sex industry that destroys women and children."

I think this statement perfectly demonstrates the kind of folly you will fall into when you follow your way of reasoning. Folly rarely achieves its purpose and often results in great harm so you would be better to abandon it. Your method of reasoning must be faulty because it leads you to a falsehood. Because your reasoning leads you to being wrong about me, it will almost certainly lead you to be wrong about many other things as well. That is what faulty reasoning does.

I care a great deal about rape and the destruction of children. I may care about it more than you because I'm less vain and that allows me look outside myself more effectively and we need that for compassion. I worry that when you consider the victims of abuse you may be more concerned with how dittany feels about them than with how they are feeling and that risks making you blind to them. It is the same blindness that the rapist and the abuser suffer from. They are worrying about their own feelings too. I'm sure this is an outrageous claim in the matter of degree. I hope I can be certain you are incapable of that level of blindness. However, most of the time we are not dealing with that level of blindness - we are dealing with something closer to yours. That is why you should curb your own tendencies in that direction when you are exhorting others to do the same. If you do not, morally, you are giving them consent to the opposite. I know this because I'm not a moral imbecile.

The truth is that the world is worthy of an explanation that goes beyond an exhibition of the feelings you are most proud of, however noble those feelings are and whatever they arise from. Because you put those feelings first you are liable to make false claims about the world as you assert the primacy of your feelings over how it actually is. That is what leads you to make a foolish claims about me and, probably, the man who went to Thailand.

Despite what we might claim of each other in a rhetorical manner, I think we want the same outcome. The dispute is about the means of achieving it. I think I could talk to the friend of the OP, who was originally the topic of thread before it turned into a competition in moral outrage, and he would be less likely to return to Thailand as a sex tourist as a consequence. If you spoke to him I think he would be more likely to return.

dittany · 01/02/2011 12:34

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dittany · 01/02/2011 12:35

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kepler10b · 01/02/2011 12:39

YANBU to disagree with his actions. it's not necessarily a dealbreaker for friendship though. i have friends who have done things i don't agree with - taking drugs that damage communities and often fund other dodgy behaviour for example. no one is perfect or totally ethically aligned to our own sense of right and wrong.

KnittedBreast · 01/02/2011 12:44

i know alot of thai girls and also have friends who live in thailand.

there are some girls/ women who have sex for money but there is also a culture over there that many women have multiple boyfriends who take care of them with cash, there is a high death rate among thai men nad they are notorious for just leaving their girlfriends and kids. so many have multiple boyfs but not as i they are sleeping with them all. an ex might continue to pay money to a girl even after they have broken up even if she has a new boyf.

this strage culture isnt well understood by western men and sadly many pimps have taken advantage and force girls to sell themselves to tourists for sex.

there are some women who date western tourists for the duratio of the holida and get nice gifts etc...then the man goes home and they move on to next, not much different to the behaviour of some yong women here. unfortunatly it is impossible to tell who is doing it cos they want to and who is 12 and being pimped.

GetOrfMoiLand · 01/02/2011 12:46

I would be utterly disgusted at a man who behaved in this way.

My XP had a business in Thailand - he went there every couple of months or so. He employed several englisg blokes to run it whilst he was there. When I was with him he used to take the piss out of the blokes he employed - as they all had 'relationships' with young Thai girls. He mocked them and said that of course the Thai girls were only with them for their money.

I left him in the end (he was a vile git anyhow) and found out afterwards that of course he had a Thai girlfriend and wasn't I naive to have believed all his stories. I since found out that he had used prostitutes in Amsterdam, Dubai and Thailand for pretty much the 7 years we were together.

I ended up doing the whole wringing hands thing thinking it was my fault - what was wrong with me that he had to use prostitutes? But now looking back I realise that the problem was with him. he was just a useless fucker who liked to be in control and feel like the 'man'. Now I hold him in deep, deep contempt. What a fucking pathetic wanker he is.

I worked last year with a single bloke who went every year on his own to Thailand. It was strongly suspected that he went there to use prostitutes, and when a colleague jokingly asked him about it, he admitted that is indeed what he did. It summed him up really. He loathed working with me, as I am quite mouthy and used to conradict the crap he came out with, and at the time we both had a female manager; he treated us both with utter disdain. I commented to him (re Thai girls) that he was the type of man that had to go to Thailand for nefarious purposes as no sane woman would choose to have a relationship with him. I found it absolutely impossible to work with him after this (and he hated working with me as well) and we used to sit in meetings not saying a word to each other. He left in the end. Vile.

I could not and would not give the time of day to any man who used prostitutes. I really wish we would adopt the scandinavian model of prosecuting men who use prsotitutes. I don't hold with this 'the oldest profession' crap. No fucking way. If you have to pay for it, you are a vile, amoral loser.

Andre1960 · 01/02/2011 14:08

dittany You need to make up your mind whether you didn't read my post or whether it contained poor arguments.

The only argument worth having is whether OP's friend is likely to return to Thailand after you've spoken to him. I think he is likely to return and would consider this to be a bad outcome. I fear you would be satisfied because you will have preserved your sense of moral indignation and that, after all, is what matters here. He will go off to satisfy his vice, and you will go off having satisfied yours. A 'win-win' situation!

dittany · 01/02/2011 14:12

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Andre1960 · 01/02/2011 14:59

dittany p.s. Mumsnet is an excellent place for this discussion because anyone raising children faces the same question about how to make healthy, happy and responsible adults. Exhortation, prohibition and condemnation don't work and everything taught by that method will be progressively ditched once the child is free from parental constraint.

dittany · 01/02/2011 15:23

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ccpccp · 01/02/2011 15:24

Why shouldnt Andre address you dittany?

His posts have been well thought out and are in no way personally insulting. You drew first blood by attacking him.

This is AIBU and he can post what he likes within the rules. If anyone is breaking them its you with your 'misogyny' Hmm personal insults.

I know MN feels like your personal playground. But really it isnt.

AnyFucker · 01/02/2011 15:35

there's no show without Punch...

I have said this before and I will say it again.

Anyone who uses such pompous, long winded, navel-gazing rhetoric is actually very difficult to engage with

I pretty much don't understand a word that Andre posts

I suspect that is part of the aim.

More to the point, I can't be arsed to try any more. So Andre, if you think your "cerebral discussion" with this particular perpetrator of sexual abuse would make one jot of difference, I think you are wrong. He is more likely to run screaming to the next flight bound for Thailand with a wad of dosh in his hand, just to make the noise stop.

Give me a dozen plain speakers any day !

HerBeX · 01/02/2011 15:37
Grin

at AF, that's exactly what I was thinking.

dittany · 01/02/2011 16:00

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zikes · 01/02/2011 16:04

Andre's just posting word-soup. He could easily write more accessibly but chooses excessive verbiage in order to obfuscate. Grin