in thinking my rules for dd are fair and reasonable

[Cleofartra]

following on from 'at the end of my tether' thread the other day, have booked myself and dd a double appointment to see gp about her sleep and emotional issues.

Have also spoken to the teacher who's in charge of pastoral care at the school who agrees that dd needs counselling and maybe to see the ed. psyche.

I'm now in the position of needing to set some very clear boundaries (or re-establish them - they were there before but weren't being properly adhered to) so have typed up a list of 'rules' which I'm going to laminate and stick on the fridge. I want dd to be very clear about what we expect from her in terms of behaviour.

Can you cast your eyes down it and say if you think I'm being over prescriptive. The reason I've picked on these particular things is because these are things we currently have issues with at home with dd.

Get up within ten minutes of being called in the morning and without being rude.
Shoes, books, homework and uniform put ready the night before.
All homework printed out and in bag the night before it?s due to be handed in.
Eat breakfast or take it with you.
Either make your own packed lunch or take the one which is prepared for you without complaining.
Behave properly in lessons. Write your homework down.
Get back from school by 3.30 if you don?t have an after school club or detention.
Hang your blazer and coat up, put your bag in your room and your shoes on the shoe rack.
One hour of academic work to be done every night - not in front of the television. No emailing or surfing the internet while doing schoolwork. If you haven?t been set an hour?s homework I will give you work to do.
During the week schoolwork done before television or surfing the internet.
Twenty minutes piano practice every day including at weekends.
When mum and dad say ?no?, don?t keep asking ? persistent and aggressive demands constitute harassment and are not acceptable.
No name-calling or swearing.
Respect your and our home and possessions ? any deliberate breakages or wilful damage will have to be paid for from your pocket money.
Don?t take food without asking.
No rudeness and complaining about meals. If you don?t want what?s on offer then politely decline and help yourself to fruit and toast instead.
Keep your hands and feet to yourself ? no pushing, slapping or pulling at people?s clothes.
Bed time is at 9pm during the week. Main light off 9.30pm. At the weekend you can go to bed an hour later.

Cleofartra

This site is very good

Rob Parson is a great author on the subject of parenting-I don't like reading or should I say I find it difficult to actually pick up a book/find time to read but it helped our family.

OR

Local parenting classes?

Positive Parenting Have a look at this site

Choose your area to see if they are running a course.

Rinabean - you are just wrong. For seven months I cuddled dd off to sleep every night until DH put his foot down and said it was disrupting our evenings too much. We have a loving, close relationship and she tells me everything and tells me she loves me, in between screaming at me that I'm a shit mother and she hates me.

" and accepts you when you make mistakes?! My god. I'm genuinely curious."

I want her to TRY. Even if she gets things wrong or fails. If she doesn't learn that most people have to work hard for success in any field then she's doomed to a crap life. I want her to make an effort. That's all.

"Did you have a shit mother too" I have the best and most loving mum in the world, who has also showered love and affection on my dd.

Anyway, been to doctor. Doctor feels there are serious issues re: dd's inability to sleep/self harming and lack of self control. She'll contact CAMHS and push for quick referral.

And DH came home today and told her she is doing swimming lessons with her cousin every week. Starts tomorrow. So hopefully that's one night she'll sleep well.

DD screamed at me in the car on the way home from the docs. Said it's all my fault. Everything. However since then she's said sorry and that she loves me. She's just getting into her pyjamas and then we're going to have a cuddle. (her suggestion) Onwards and upwards.

sigh. at first i disagreed with the CAMHS idea but now i've read the violent/destructive behaviour bit i think its a good move. you can ask school/gp/ed psych for a cahms referral but you need to mention the violence.

i think your dd is very bored and i think you know that due to the setting extra homework bt to push her. i didnt understand that part before - apologies - i do now. i think this is why you want to piano practice every day too - makes sense but most people have at least one day off. let her choose a day off from it.

how is oyur dd with sports/dance/any kind of activity which involves lots of energy? if she does any of these how about a bit more. see ehats available locally. a new focus could hep i think.

maybe even sitting down with dd and tlaking over what really interests/challenges her might be helpful. then take it from there :-)

cleo - x posts. camhs and swimming. bingo - all good i think. best of luck x

"Why on earth did you let her go to this school in the first place???"

The school is 10 minutes walk away and has an outstanding OFSTED rating. DD loved it when she went to see it and really wanted to go there. It's not a bad school - it's well resourced and well managed, but the intake is very, very rough. It's dd who hates the school and is not making any effort. I personal view is that if you're self motivated you'll achieve anywhere, if you have good teachers, not too much disruption in the classroom.

"and part of the rebellion is her trying to prove perhaps that she does fit in there?"

Yes - I think that's probably a big part of it.

personal view is that if you're self motivated you'll achieve anywhere, if you have good teachers, not too much disruption in the classroom

I found it very very hard to get motivated. I was top of the class, with little competition. Some kids thrive on competition, your daughter could well be one, but if there is nobody for her to try and beat, there is no reason to try... if that makes sense.

I can identify with a lot of your daughters problems, but not all of them.

Perhaps she feels pushed out at home if her little brother is very demanding on your time. I was an only child, so that was never a factor.

I was a disobedient brat though, who put my mum through hell from the age of 11 until I was about 18 if I am being honest. All I can say is it gave me a very good insight when my stepdaughters reached their teens and played up.

I cringe now thinking what I put my mum and dad through.. I must have been hell to live with.

So most of my advice is coming from the perspective of what would have probably worked for me when I was that age.

I started my periods at 11 too, and they were horrendous, to the point that by 13 the doctor put me on the pill to help.

I have only read the first 3 pages of this thread, I will read the rest when i have more time but I wanted to answer. Apologies if i cross post with anyone.

Firstly you sound like you are having a tough time, my sympathies, I work with dissaffected teenagers and they can be awfully challenging.

Some of the techniques I use at work could be useful here.

Can you give her targets rather than rules? targets that are known as SMART:
Specific
Measurable
Achievable
Relevant / Realistic
Time-bound.

So instead of clear up your dirty dishes-flat no negotiation rule, try clean up your dirty plates 3 times this week. Then a reward of being able to watch a programme on TV of her choice or something similar.

Pick three things that you want her to acheive in the next day/week/month and break them down into manageable chunks. Then if she does manage to achieve, up the target next time until you get the change you want.

You can come up with these targets together, what you have is a list of problems there. Pick one, sit down with your DD at a time of calm no anger, over a cuppa a biscuit or a KFC if she likes fried chicken and say why it's a problem and ask her what she thinks you should do about it. Then compromise on her what she thinks she can do to resolve it. You may need to agree to drop the extra homework or the piano lessons or something else entirely. 11 is old enough to be able to problem solve with guidance.

Good luck with it.

best of luck glad doc was helpfull.

swimming is a good idea, my dsn came to live my sis and her dp and he has started swimming foot ball etc and moans to everyone who will listen but he does love it. with out such he would be sitting in his room festering and not sleeping at night. The activities has imporoved his relationship with them as they can go along and watch and support him and tell him how great he is doing. even if his responce to them is hummmf!! he gets a positive responce and they get a responce from him at least.

Relax

DD goes nuts when I'm generally wound up, I relax she relaxes.

Get her out doing social physical things. Amateur dramatics, Air or Army cadets might be particularly good.

Back up on the homework, when she can see it's important she will do it herself.

Forget about the education in school, from the sounds of it she'll do alright regardless. At home get her interested in stuff, art galleries, musicals, museums wildlife everything that will get her wanting to find out about things herself and explore herself.

Find stuff that will get her thinking of what's interesting about playing piano what's the final outcome of the piano lessons

I have a five year old ds with asd and adhd and it's very hard work getting him to do the things he needs to do - get dressed, eat his meal, get off the computer, get ready for bed. It's very tiring. Like trying to push a boulder up a hill.

Sorry if someone has already said this (I haven't got time to read the whole thread), but I think your DS's ASD & ADHD is the key to your DD's behaviour. She is craving attention. Your DS necessarily gets a lot of attention because of his behavioural issues. She is mimicking his behaviour because she craves attention.

Until you find a way of giving her positive attention, she will not stop her bad behaviour. By giving her this set of rules, you are absolutely playing into her hands - more rules = more rebellion = more attention.

I'm glad it went well at the doctor, I was trying to say I thought there were issues beyond just the normal not tidying up/not doing her homework, her anger issues, self-harming and impulsivity (e.g. running away) all illustrate that.

Rina, the OP is not your mother. Stop projecting. The OP is at her wits end, but still loves her daughter and wants to change to make things better, and was open to the idea that the list wasn't going to help in that form. As someone else said, in the past, children would have just been beaten for such behaviour, now we try to find a kinder and more co-operative way, but if you are stuck in a cycle of negative behaviour it's very hard to feel unconditionally positive about someone. I also don't think blaming anyone helps, as it's usually a combination of factors (e.g. of course the OP is now stressed and wound up and in reactive mode because she is living with a very difficult situation, destressing and relaxing more would help but I don't find the fact that she's not chilled in the face of extreme behaviour to be a fault necessarily, just human).

I think the other think is, we are visualising a big full-grown woman-child here, a hormonal teenager who thinks she's an adult. This child is eleven. She's a baby really. We need to keep that in mind.

I'm glad the GP was helpful. It sounds like a good start.

And what is it about SN and laminators...

Hi Cleo

I've skimmed this thread and read your last one. I think you have received some good advice on here but also advice from people that did not read your other thread and don't know the extreme situation you are dealing with.

You are doing all the right things GP etc. I don't think your rules are unreasonable, but I would listen to those who have said re-word and maybe condense. In other words have one rule about being rude etc. this should apply to all warps of life.

I also second the idea of removing all the lovely things she gets to do, unless she behaves. But you can explain verbally (both you and DH) the expectations behind the rule of the things that she isn't doing. E.g. no rudeness which means that xx you often do at the moment is unacceptable.

I was lazy at school and only in my mid twenties did I realise how bright I was. My parents did nothing to develop my self esteem and I got lazier and lazier. It is good that you are interested in education. Perhaps, rather than setting work for her, you can decide together what she should do. She should feel she has a say and choose what extra things she learns about. How about giving her a 'day off' for extra work a week (if she is behaving well). It looks more like you are working together then and not against her.

Good luck with this Cleo, it does seem tough.

Sorry things are so tough. I agree with lots of others about picking half a dozen of the most important things for her to do and reward her for sticking to them. Lots of incremental achievements and little rewards along the way. Does she know at all what she wants at the moment?

Cleo

Have you thought about just living with her for now until she has her appt's with CAMHs, etc?

I am going through the process with my son and I have to say that the process includes them asking you to put stuff in place as you go along and if it helps it then informs the assessment process.

If she has got ASD / ADHD then your list is absolutely impossible and anxiety forming for her.

I am learning that I have to have a completely different approach to discipline. We have structures and routines to reduce anxiety... its a very simple written timetable but I am learning that it's not enough and I may have to move to it being a visual timetable and every task being broken down.

You might have to also just have to let some of it go... like the piano practice.... FGS you can't get her to eat and sleep properly - make these your priorities I reckon because without proper fueling and sleep the other stuff is pretty difficult anyway and the less time shouting at her for not hanging her coat up the more time you have to work on the other stuff.

I know it might seem like she isn't making any effort but have you considered that she is making a huge effort every day but that she just finds normal tasks harder than the rest of us? If you consider that then it's not a massive jump to realising how frustrating, anxiety forming it would be and how that might make you shouty, reluctant to try and want to hurt yourself.

Doesn't make it any easier to live with.

Hark at me... like I know anything... I'm about 6 months further down the process to you! I am on a steep learning curve!

It's so difficult. Have you talked to the school?

Good advice above but I would go with trying something if only so the scared little girl inside the virago knows you still, despite her best (worst!) efforts care.

Control is possibly the major issue and I am mindful that if a diagnosis of ADHD etc is made it is very complicated. At present she controls your whole lives as a family but probably feels as though she has no control or autonomy. When you have one of those loving moments show her your list, tell her it is unreasonable (see adults struggle to get things right too ) and ask for her help. What would she like to improve? What would help? Does she think punishment for not achieving will work? Would a reward be better? Does she want to be reminded or left to be responsible herself?

Make sure it is SMART as suggested above but more importantly make sure it is achievable. You both need to believe things can work out. Do you think she could manage not to lash out physically for a week? Do piano practises five days out if seven with only one gentle reminder each day?

If even the conversation is too much for her back right off saying that would it be better to talk later/tomorrow whenever? Asking her to make choices is a big thing for a tired/unhappy/confused child. It might need several conversations and lots of space together with constant acknowledgement that you know she is capable.

Be slow, gentle and loving. Life is shit right now for all of you. Things can and will get easier though. X

Hi,not read all thats been posted or posted on here before but for what it's worth YANBU, it's all common sense really but if your DD needs it all written down till her behaviour improves I don't see a problem! I doubt the list will be up on the fridge forever when she gets to grips with the rules, we all had them growing up!

Hope it works for you!