in thinking my rules for dd are fair and reasonable

[Cleofartra]

following on from 'at the end of my tether' thread the other day, have booked myself and dd a double appointment to see gp about her sleep and emotional issues.

Have also spoken to the teacher who's in charge of pastoral care at the school who agrees that dd needs counselling and maybe to see the ed. psyche.

I'm now in the position of needing to set some very clear boundaries (or re-establish them - they were there before but weren't being properly adhered to) so have typed up a list of 'rules' which I'm going to laminate and stick on the fridge. I want dd to be very clear about what we expect from her in terms of behaviour.

Can you cast your eyes down it and say if you think I'm being over prescriptive. The reason I've picked on these particular things is because these are things we currently have issues with at home with dd.

Get up within ten minutes of being called in the morning and without being rude.
Shoes, books, homework and uniform put ready the night before.
All homework printed out and in bag the night before it?s due to be handed in.
Eat breakfast or take it with you.
Either make your own packed lunch or take the one which is prepared for you without complaining.
Behave properly in lessons. Write your homework down.
Get back from school by 3.30 if you don?t have an after school club or detention.
Hang your blazer and coat up, put your bag in your room and your shoes on the shoe rack.
One hour of academic work to be done every night - not in front of the television. No emailing or surfing the internet while doing schoolwork. If you haven?t been set an hour?s homework I will give you work to do.
During the week schoolwork done before television or surfing the internet.
Twenty minutes piano practice every day including at weekends.
When mum and dad say ?no?, don?t keep asking ? persistent and aggressive demands constitute harassment and are not acceptable.
No name-calling or swearing.
Respect your and our home and possessions ? any deliberate breakages or wilful damage will have to be paid for from your pocket money.
Don?t take food without asking.
No rudeness and complaining about meals. If you don?t want what?s on offer then politely decline and help yourself to fruit and toast instead.
Keep your hands and feet to yourself ? no pushing, slapping or pulling at people?s clothes.
Bed time is at 9pm during the week. Main light off 9.30pm. At the weekend you can go to bed an hour later.

MadameDefarge's edited list is perhaps better because otherwise the list is maybe a little too long and a little too repetitive. You'll lose her halfway through reading the original one.

On the other hand I'm sorry you're having such a hard time at the moment so hugs to you - hang in there, at least you are trying to help your dd.

I think the list is too long.

Maybe work on being nice to each other first. Try to gloss over minor misdemeanors.

Her hormones will be going overdrive at the moment. Pick your battles - do not start a war.

I really liked MadameDefarge's list. It's clear but not so prescriptive. My first thought on reading the list in the OP was that I hoped you had a very big fridge to fit that lot on.

It doesn't sound as though she's had much of an incentive to behave. If she doesn't do something then someone else does it for her. Her behaviour's bad enough for you to bring in the school and GP yet she's had a lot of treats and privileges.

As others have said, keep it simple and make sure she has to earn those treats.

"Get the crap out of the fridge. Remove the temptations of processed meats, brie, chocolate.. I am assuming YOU are the one doing the shopping."

Yes - but DH and I like to have food that we like to eat in the house and don't see why we should go without because dd is behaving like this. She's not bulimic. She's rude and greedy.

"Why???? why do you do it? Who is the adult in this house? You cant make a child pick up a dirty plate?"

Yes - can and do make her do it. Every day. Every meal. Please take your plate through to the kitchen and put it in the dishwasher. Please clear up your cup etc after making yourself a drink. Please put your uniform ready so we don't have lots of stress and shouting in the morning when we're all trying to leave the house for school and work. Every day. Every meal. Politely. Sometimes she does it. Mostly she says 'In a minute', or 'I'm just doing x,y,z'. I then remind her. Once, twice. It's her policy at present never to do anything she's asked so my entire day is taken up with asking. Sometimes, often, I get worn out with asking and do it myself. I have a five year old ds with asd and adhd and it's very hard work getting him to do the things he needs to do - get dressed, eat his meal, get off the computer, get ready for bed. It's very tiring. Like trying to push a boulder up a hill.

Cleofarta - I think you should ask for this thread to be moved to the teen boards. AIBU really isn't the place for this.

Fron your second post I can see why things have got this far. I think we all should have read your other thread first, I'm sorry I didn't :(

I think that this thread being in AIBU will cause you a lot of grief for very little reward. If you want to move it 'report' your own first post and ask the Tech's to move it to teen for you.

You are just going to get an undeserved pasting here, not by everyone, of course as you can see you have already had some helpful replies as well, but you will get more in 'teen'.

I have read your other thread and know that you are going through a lot with your DD. I do think though that if I was 11 years old and was shown that list I would say "I am never going to be able to do all that" and she probably feels that the consequences for breaking one rule won't be much different than if she breaks them all. So she mightn't bother making any effort. I think the ones like hanging up her coat should be more of a "common sense" thing than a rule, and I would get all kids in on a routine at the same time.

It does sound like you are having a very hard time with her but I agree with those who say the list is far too long. Combine all the school related ones into something like "You are responsible for sorting out your homework, sports kit and books." If she doesn't so it, let her go without it and let her and the school know that you will back any sanctions they give her. The after school stuff could be "Homework and piano to be done before TV" You should be able to get a homework timetable from her school so you know what work she SHOULD have each night (though don't accuse her of lying if she says she hasn't - we don't always set it!) The food thing I don't really have any experience of but someone else said maybe try and get her involved in the shopping / cooking / choosing what its going to be, then she has less excuse not to eat it. I think really about 6 rules has to the max if you want her to even consider it. Best of luck

my immediate thoughts

the list is way too long, cut it down to say five manageable aims

dont set her up to fail, she will never stick to all that lot , nor could i

pick your battles, let the little things go for now

I am beginning to feel my main rule in parenting is "never give them treats that you are going to resent if they then misbehave". You know like the Beatles line, "we gave her most of our lives, Sacrificed most of our lives".

On the one hand, she clearly has been given a lot of material treats lately and she seems to have a lot of money. On the other hand, your resentment shines through and she won't have missed that.

I appreciate that you are going through a very rough time here, and that you probably have every reason to feel resentful. But you need to relax, at least outwardly, and try to prioritise a bit with that list of rules. Some of them are common sense- of course you can't have an 11yo who slaps people- others do seem controlling. Others seem perhaps a bit more controlling. Can't imagine any circumstances under which I would make my ds do an hour's homework just for the sake of it.

What I would do with that list is sit down and sort it into four categories:

a) the Absolute Rules. Those have to be spelled out and you are not prepared to compromise. Such as We don't hit.

b) the things that you do want to achieve, but maybe there are subtler ways of doing it. Like, if you only keep boring and healthy stuff in your cupboards, there will be less temptation to snack, if you laugh at repeated won't-take-no-for-an-answer-demands she may start feeling silly about it.

c) the things that are desirable but which she really needs to start taking responsibility for herself. Like when her homework goes in the bag. Or indeed if it gets done at all. Let the school sort her out. Just refuse to help her in any way in the morning if she is panicking. Laugh and tell her she is big enough and this is not your problem.

d) the things you may have to let slip for the time being. Is it really that important that she gets up within 10 minutes of waking up (this makes me feel physically ill). Can't she just be woken up earlier? Or actually, better still- have her own alarm clock. Are the 20 minutes piano practice the most important thing about her atm?

Disclaimer: not experienced in this, as DS is only 3

Maybe some of the "rules" could be included in a daily timetable type thing, eg getting up time, breakfast time, making lunch time, snack times (if food is an issue and you feel you need more control of the type/quantity eaten), meal times, homework time, play/tv/net time, getting stuff ready for next day, bedtime etc.
Then one rule to follow timetable, which might look less intimidating that lots of separate rules. Maybe some reward scheme for following the timetable, or sanctions for not, if you feel appropriate?

What I meant to say (I hit post too soon) was to either try to shorten the list a bit or put it into sections. I may have missed this part, but have you ever tried a reward chart type thing? Or maybe it is gone beyond that at this stage?

Maryz, you are right.

If you have a child who is reasonably co-operative and already does some of this stuff, then a list like this is not outrageous, it's generally stuff that well-behaved children do, but without it all written down.

However, if you have a child who is in a complete state of rebelling, extremely rude, defiant, has run away and had the police out, self-harming, has eating issues (which is what you told us on the other thread), I just cannot see how presenting this list is going to work at all.

It's not that I don't feel for you, I really do, and I do second Valhalla's post that some children aren't of the 'count to three' and just do it variety. I also don't think it's all down to parenting anyway, I know at least two lovely kind caring families with great boundaries which have one child who is very difficult, defiant, problems at school and in both cases ran off with older men when they were about 13 (which is absolutely where you don't want to head).

I would take advice from the school/teachers/CAHMS on how to start and where to start with resetting boundaries. As others have said, not doing 20 min piano practice is not of the same order as hitting, punching, running away. You need to pick a max of 5 things to work on and then write them in a positive way, with a positive reward (and a clear sanction).

This list will result in an epic fail on Day 1, when your daughter gets up late, is rude, does no homework or piano practice, and eats something that isn't toast and fruit. You will then be left with a dilemma, do I remove every single thing she owns or back down. Either way, you won't have what you want, which is a nice to live with co-operative daughter.

Personally, I would get the sleep sorted first, as without that, she is going to be too knackered to make good choices and change anyway.

I think your rules can be made more succinct, they are mostly around the same themes.

The getting up, shoes books homework in bag, hanging coat up, shoes away, and writing homework down really all come under the umbrella of "Make preparation for school a priority and you will reap the rewards".

Homework and practice can come under a new umbrella basically entitled "once homework and practice is completed to a satisfactory standard, leisure time can be enjoyed".

Food is the third umbrella - I hear you about her hoovering out the fridge then refusing meals - she wants food independence. Any way she can have her own shelf and cupboard and eat freely from these stocks, irrespective of whether she then chooses to eat dinner or not? You need to get her to feel she has the choice or you will have an eating disorder on your hands. Even if she rejects your dinners. But limit the type of food (or the amount of the really popular type) she has in her shelf and cupboard and when it runs out, she might have to actually eat what you serve. You could even put her uneated portion on her fridge shelf. Include plenty of the foods she does like on her shelf, but within reason. Its more like redistributing your weekly shop than completely changing it.

The 4th umbrella is respecting others: therefore no hitting, pulling, and bitching (including whinging about food, whinging about getting up etc) - respect others and they will respect you.

Follow these 4 basic rules on a daily basis and earn a token each day. 5 tokens can potentially be earned, and spent in the following way...etc.

Ok so your rules are reasonilble but to descriptive and repaetative, how about these.

Night time routine;
Alarm set
uniform, home work etc, packed in school bag.
lights out 9.30pm

Morning routine;
get up as soon as alarm goes off.
eat breakfast, get dressed, packed lunch in bag, leave for school (insert time)

Afternoon routine
3.30 home, put coat bag etc away, homework, piano,dinner, free time untill 9pm.

No unacceptable behaviour from anyone in this family inc.
verbal abuse, name calling
violence, harresment.
please ask before helping self to food.

expectations for all family memebers.
eat what is offered or nothing else.
request input to meal plans from all the family.

I think that list is too long and too detailed. Your DD will look for the loopholes - she will leave her scarf on the floor and when you ask her to pick it up, she will say it is not in the rules. So you'll end up with so many rules that neither you nor she will be able to remember what is in them. They will become meaningless.

So, first thing, try and make some of the rules generic. Ideally have some that apply to everyone in the house (so DD is not being singled out). Try and word them positively e.g.

1)Be Polite.
2)Be Gentle (physical and verbal violence is not acceptable).

Just these 2 rules would eliminate a lot of the repetition in your list. You don't need to specify what constitutes politeness/rudeness in the written rules - it should be pretty clear to an 11yo when she is being rude or aggressive (with people or objects) and you can always tell her that x or Y is rude when she does it.

Secondly, I would be tempted to have a separate daily timetable for your DD. Split each day into 5 or 6 sections, and put a checklist showing what needs to be done e.g. homework in bag, piano practice, get lunch ready. That will allow you to add and remove tasks without needing to renegotiate the whole set of rules plus it makes the rules look a lot less intimidating. You can than make a rule:

3. Complete the activities on your daily list (activities can only be dropped or changed by mutual agreement).

Thirdly, make sure that only high priority behaviours get included in the rules. You can then set appropriate sanctions for rule-breaking, which are clearly understood and not up for discussion e.g. hitting you. You could have some 'lesser' sanctions for other behaviour such as shoes not on shoe-rack.

IMO it is up to the school to monitor her behaviour in school - and decide on sanctions. If the school has punished her once, is it really necessary for you to punish her again for the same offence?

Oh, and the helping herself to food without asking, can you not say that she can help herself to (for example) anything in the fruit bowl, but that she must ask for other food. Give her a little freedom.

Sorry the post is so long.

Yes - but DH and I like to have food that we like to eat in the house and don't see why we should go without because dd is behaving like this. She's not bulimic. She's rude and greedy.

but removing the temptation will surely help to resolve the problem.. it wont kill you to cut back on the luxury food items for a bit..

saying "in a minute" is the standard response from a kid that age.. I tried it... my mothers reply was "not in a minute, NOW".. if I didnt do it, I would be grounded and in my room for the night, with no tv, no laptop (they didnt exist then)..

I also think that you should try and make rules about behaviour that arevagreed upon by everyone. And have clear consequences.

Making thevrules too authoritarian isn't the same as being firm.

You can have a rule ' we are polite to each other' which covers quite a bit of your list . She needs to understand though exactly whatvwill happen if she isn't polite. If she breaches thevrules then you are able to invoke the punishmentbwithout being wound up or angry.

At one point ds1s rule was that he could go out after school but had to phone and ask if he would be later than six. The two times he didn't it was so nice to be able to look at bit sorrowfully at him and say ' bad decision. Hand over your phone'

I have a child with sn. I think it is even more importantbwith a difficult child to be positive as well as clear.

If she needs such specific rules at least make then something that , if she does them , you will be proud of her. And if she struggles perhaps some wiggle room for trying.

Have you a mechanism fir her when she is upset or angry - what is she allowed to do? We gave ds2 the option to walk away and go to his room if he was getting upset/ angry. It was to allow him to learn how to manage his emotions.

Original post - If you don?t want what?s on offer then politely decline and help yourself to fruit and toast instead

Later post - She's not fussy, she's just sees that refusing to eat food I've cooked as a way of asserting her independence. Stuffing high calorie food in between meals helps her say 'no' to anything I've cooked.

Don't give her the option of toast - she needs to understand that she eats what she is given, like the rest of the household.
My children would often far rather eat toast than what I have cooked.

Otherwise, I have every sympathy and can quite understand why you have had to resort to this list.

"If you haven?t been set an hour?s homework I will give you work to do."

Why?

I don't have a teenager (I assume she is teenage?) so I can't really comment but I think that this is all going to go tits up.

It's all too much and very very negative and sounds like it's all out of control.

Need maybe to have a break from one another. Dad sounds passive in this (not uncommon maybe).

Could you and she go away on your own for the weekend? Or at least one night? Get out of the house together and have some time together in a neutral activity?

It sounds like she's getting all her privileges (sleepovers, shows etc) regardless of her behaviour.

I think you need to have a loving starting point somehow and have clear boundaries and maybe listen to her a bit. How is she? What is really going on with her? She sounds like she's communicating a lot to you but non verbally. You need to get on the same page and start from a loving place.
That's just my opinion! Otherwise it's such a negative starting point there's no changing the direction somehow.

Didn't see the original thread OP, but it does sound like you've got a really challenging situation on your hands.

Whether a list like this is the right way to tackle it, I'm not certain. For starters, it is very long. I think that the more you put in a list such as this, the less likely it is to have an impact. None of these things are unreasonable in themselves (except maybe the piano playing - does she have to do this if she doesn't want to?), but the list as a whole seems a little unfeasable to me. The other aspect of it is that it automatically gives the impression of being dictatorial. Now, I recognise that you should be the boss in your own home but I get the impression that she has stormed through most boundaries you have tried to apply. A list like this will, A) give her a whole new set of rules to rebel against, and B) completely knacker you out when you're trying to addresses the rule breaches. I think you will end up finding that you are physically and emotionally not capable of 'policing' these rules - this could lead to more inconsistency from you which in turn could lead to more problems from her.

Can I suggest a couple of options:

1 - Manage as best you can until you've met the Ed Psych and take their professional advice (take the list along with you).

2 - Make another set of rules, but this time focus on acceptable conduct rather than acceptable behaviour. E.g. I will treat my family and teachers with respect, no bad language etc. rather than I will get up at such and such o'clock. Also, put in writing a process that you can follow when you have a disagreement. I.e. how you will listen to her perspective and how she should listen to yours. Yes, you should always have the final say, but this will give her the opportunity of being listened to. You might get a better idea of the feelings, motivations etc behind her behaviour then.

Good luck.