in thinking my rules for dd are fair and reasonable

[Cleofartra]

following on from 'at the end of my tether' thread the other day, have booked myself and dd a double appointment to see gp about her sleep and emotional issues.

Have also spoken to the teacher who's in charge of pastoral care at the school who agrees that dd needs counselling and maybe to see the ed. psyche.

I'm now in the position of needing to set some very clear boundaries (or re-establish them - they were there before but weren't being properly adhered to) so have typed up a list of 'rules' which I'm going to laminate and stick on the fridge. I want dd to be very clear about what we expect from her in terms of behaviour.

Can you cast your eyes down it and say if you think I'm being over prescriptive. The reason I've picked on these particular things is because these are things we currently have issues with at home with dd.

Get up within ten minutes of being called in the morning and without being rude.
Shoes, books, homework and uniform put ready the night before.
All homework printed out and in bag the night before it?s due to be handed in.
Eat breakfast or take it with you.
Either make your own packed lunch or take the one which is prepared for you without complaining.
Behave properly in lessons. Write your homework down.
Get back from school by 3.30 if you don?t have an after school club or detention.
Hang your blazer and coat up, put your bag in your room and your shoes on the shoe rack.
One hour of academic work to be done every night - not in front of the television. No emailing or surfing the internet while doing schoolwork. If you haven?t been set an hour?s homework I will give you work to do.
During the week schoolwork done before television or surfing the internet.
Twenty minutes piano practice every day including at weekends.
When mum and dad say ?no?, don?t keep asking ? persistent and aggressive demands constitute harassment and are not acceptable.
No name-calling or swearing.
Respect your and our home and possessions ? any deliberate breakages or wilful damage will have to be paid for from your pocket money.
Don?t take food without asking.
No rudeness and complaining about meals. If you don?t want what?s on offer then politely decline and help yourself to fruit and toast instead.
Keep your hands and feet to yourself ? no pushing, slapping or pulling at people?s clothes.
Bed time is at 9pm during the week. Main light off 9.30pm. At the weekend you can go to bed an hour later.

I think it's a perfectly reasonable list. I also think it's a rather unrealistic one! Children/teenagers without any emotional/behavioural issues struggle to keep to most of that lot, and need constant cajoling, so you might be expecting a bit much of her. To be honest (aprt from the more serious behaviour) it she sounds very similar ot my 11 year old - I can lay down rules until I'm blue in the face but he's so lazy and disorganised it's unbelievable, and I just have to accept that if I can get him to acheive 50% of what I need it's better than nothing.

My advice would be to focus on the big things and let the small things go - for your own sanity. Otherwise all you get are endless battles and deadlock.

Also, re: the getting up within 10 mins of being called, I have this problem too, if I'm honest I wouldn't want to spring out of bed within ten minutes of being woken up either - my alarm clock goes off an hour before I need to get up! Give her a radio alarm of put her ipod on a timer or something, about half an hour before. That way, when you do call her, you know she's had plenty of time to come to.

I agree with Sidge, word for word.

My dd is 13 now, and things are picking up really well since she started her periods last year. The year preceding that, she was difficult, but not in the same way as your dd - mine was asserting some independence and wanting to be treated like an adult - which was never going to happen

Teenagers eat and eat and eat. It's all about the carbs.

I personally would give her her own shelf in the fridge or cupboard. It would make her feel like she was being heard, which is what this seems all about to me.

9pm might be right for some 11 year olds certainly not mine. Ive a 23 year old and a 17 year old they were going to sleep at 9 when they were 7.

11 years old starting secondary school and having a bedtime!

Not all children need 22 hours kip.

Maybe sending them to their rooms, but to sleep? Has anyone every tried to sleep when they are not tired, just makes it worse.

Maybe Im too old but I was always flexible with my children, and what I done always seemed to coincide with what their friends parents did.

I've real good kids too never been any bother.

I don't think you are asking/expecting too much, however I do think that list is very daunting & just begging for problems. If I was a stroppy 11 year old I'd tell you where to shove it.

There are some great comments here on how to modify/simplify/amend your list.

Despite all this dreadful behaviour including agressing towards you, you are providing your DD with quite a charmed lifestyle. I would certainly withdraw all priviledges & make her earn them back. I'm kind of amazed that you'd shower her with all these lovely treats when she is behaving this way ???

Would it be possible to structure this more as a contract? Ie. I expect XY&Z from you, in return for conforming with these acceptable behaviour guidelines & treating the rest of your family respectfully, you can have internet access, time on laptop, lunch money, shopping trips, show & concert tickets, sleepovers etc.

For example if she behaves re food etc, you will ask her to write a list of food she would like for lunch and is willing to prepare/pack herself, that can be picked up with the family shop. If she doesn't sort her food behaviour out, then absolutely NO lunch money will be provided & send her off with a cheese sandwich and a couple of pieces of fruit every day until she gets it.

If you are going to crack this you are going to have to be tough, but also reward her proportionally.

hi there,
I don't often post here but perhaps I can suggest a few things...
I would get a referal to a child and adolescent mental health team (CAHMS) not ed psych- this is not really a school/education thing is it- it's about her behaviour (mostly at home). You'll need to press your GP hard to make this happen.
In the mean time, please don't post this list up. Can I suggest a few alternatives. Firstly access some free help- a space for your frustrations would be good asit sounds like you have an awful lot on your plate (between ds and dd), there is usualy local free counselling, or maybe one of the adhd careres groups has a counseeling or support group service? A space to ofload for you might help take the heat out of you and dd's realtionship. Then I would hunt around for some local parenting classes- please don't take offence it's not that i'm saying you're a shit parent but with some dc who are finding things harder sometimes existing parenting strategies are not working and things get escalated into a cycle of interactions between parent and child which isn't working. Parenting classes such as Webster Stratton and triple P are really great at giving you some clear and helpful strategies.
The above three things will take some time. Meanwhile you all need to work together to come up with a plan. I imagine all this tension is not making for a happy household. This is your opening- as another poster suggested do something nice togehter, open the idea of collaborative suggestions with somehting like "you're not happy, I'm not happy what can we do about it?" You then both need a space to talk about what makes you cross (it a makes mummy cross when you eat all the cheese- what do I do that makes you cross dd?) maybe this might shed some light on any unhappyness at school? You need to approach this like a problem solving exercise, so foe example you might say "it really makes me cross when you don't want food I've cooked then you eat things form the fridage- what can we do about this dd? Would it help if you picked two of the family meals a week?"
Then you need to get into the what can we do about it bit for all the areas (this applies to you to so what can I do about the fact that you don't like it when I shout- what should I do differently). This should come from positives ie I agree to..... so for example "I agree to talk respectfuly" "I agree to take responsibility for my school work" really really try not to make rules that involve don't or no's (with the possible exception of no physical violance). Maximum five rules each MAX, becasue hinestly if you can't cover off good behaviour with that then you are trying to control far far too much. You may find that you have to let things go- you know she may not want to go to a better school or be a gifted musician, but having a better home life and being better adjuested will enable her to be more likely to make those decisions from a positive place.
Then you need to set what a goal is, so maybe three slip ups a week (not everyone is perfect!) and also a positive reward (importantly she gets to pick this) for when she acheives her goals. Your reward if you acheive your rules (remember you drew them up as well) is that you want to spend some one on one time with dd- so could she do that for you (no matter that at this point you may feel like your reward should be a large glass of somehitng cold! this is what you will say).
take it one step at a time. It sounds very very hard, and this will be hard work (whe will test you) which is why some support for you would be great. Hope it gets better soon.

Sorry - just re-read the list. 20 mins piano practice every day is a bit OTT. Perhpas she hates the piano?

Setting an hour's homeowrk on nights when school has given her none is unnecessary.

If she is good about going to bed on time in the week, then reward her by allowing her to decide when she does or doesn't need to sleep at weekends. And in the week don't insist on lights-out. No TV, no internet, no phone calls, yes, but I would allow her to be free to read or draw quietly if she is not ready to sleep. Without any serious distractions she's unlikely to stay awake for too long.

And with the food, if she's endlessly helping herself to excessive amounts of crisps and chocolate whilst refusing a proper dinner, do what I did. Buy a suitcase with a combination lock on it, and only get a few out at a time. Don't humiliate her over it though.

ps _ i might add that (depsite being dyslexic- excuse the v poor spelling!) I was supposedly G&T, it was not always a very helpful thing especialy at this very emotional age

On the food front, my ds is an eating machine, so what I do with him is fill a huge tupperware box with cakes, biscuits etc once a fortnight. He helps himself, no one else touches it but when it's gone it's gone until the fortnight is up.

I read your other thread but wanted to think about how to frame a proper response. Am still flabbergasted and very very sorry for the fact that your house has become a war-zone. I will say that the one thing that really leapt off the page for me was that she has been recently designated gifted and talented. Being mega-bright in my experience means an even greater need to push those boundaries. Anyway, I do think the list is really rather long - can you condense or just drop some for now? Even if this solves some of the issues, life will be better. The one I would def drop is, if she hasnt got an hours worth of homework then you will give her some. I think schools put children under a ridiculous amount of pressure these days and the amount of homework is a disgrace. My daughter had it from the age of 4!! I didnt have prep until around the age of 11 and I have done perfectly ok.

could you rather do a reward system where if you do this you get to do this if you do as asked then you get extra privilege of the weekend do chart and when she has completed each task she earns a privilege

kids thrive off of acknowledgment of good behavior yes she may have been pain in butt but do you notice when she is not and give praise where praise is needed

set your rules to get up on time etc but dont have it so negative dont give extra work if all home work done, say if you have abided by all rules and all work done why not put in you too will do something together rent movie have pop corn have some quality time

20 minutes of piano practice a day is not too much if she wants to go places with it. I was doing 3 hours a day at that age. In my first year of uni, I went to a masterclass with a Russian pianist who said we must do 16 hours a day - "8 hours playing, and 8 hours thinking "

But that is an extreme. However, if she's got exams or needs to audition, 10 minutes scales and arpeggios and 10 minutes on her pieces is fine, if not on the light side...

Out of interest, OP, although I can see your train of thought with most of the rules, why would you want to set homework if she doesn't have any?

I don't understand how she is so bad, you want her to follow this big least, but she is being treated like a spolit brat, JLS and the West End, one of those is an annual treat (if that) for us, and certainly wouldnt be after such beghaviour.
She is being rewarded for bad behaviour, and has no sanctions at all. In my house, behaviour like that would result in removal of favourite things in an order. Ipod, TV time, computer time, treats out etc.
It sounds like you need to go back to the basics.

Hettie's advice sounds great

Hettie - can you help me out in a few years when I get to the teen phase -

what about if you eat all of your meals without complaining which in all fairness i think all kids do and we probably dd too at that age
you could have reward of eat what you want Friday pizza or something maybe make them and have fun doing it together some nice bonding time movie or board game and have fun

give choices for lunch box my ds is 5 and he gets a choice what he would like out of sandwich filling flavor crisps and what fruit he has

he can have food as long as not near dinner and if he doesnt eat dinner he wont be allowed treat following day i never expect him to clear plate anyway but any complaints of not being hungry now would mean no treats next day

he does 15 mins piano every day but not at weekend i like him to feel he has some free time to just be a kid he helps around the house and earns rewards for doing this you have to be consistent only reward good behavior dont expect too much just the important things learn to pick battles and give praise where needed and have quality time together to re build your relationship

I haven't read through all the responses here but I would say that...

If you haven?t been set an hour?s homework I will give you work to do.
This seems unfair to me. Why do you feel it's necessary to do this?

Twenty minutes piano practice every day including at weekends.
Does she want to learn piano. I would say it would be better to discuss with her teacher how much practice they would say needs to be done. If she wants to learn then agree with her that if she wants to continue the lessons she has to stick to that.

Don?t take food without asking.
I think I remember from your other thread, if I am thinking of the right thing, that she is hiding junk food in her room. If this is an issue then you need to stop buying it. If she is buying it with her own money then you need to re-consider what money she gets.

No rudeness and complaining about meals.
I think it is one of the rules of childhood that you complain about the food parents give you. I agree she shouldn't be rude about it but to say she isn't allowed to complain seems quite harsh.

Overall I would say you have a very angry, confused DD and she needs your help to get to the bottom of it and support her through it. 11 is bad enough at the best of times. Something is making her feel the need to lash out and you need to find out what it is. Presenting her with a long list of rules is going to make her feel even more like lashing out and giving her even more to fight against.

i totally sympathise with you.

my observations;

setting work if not set in school genuinely seems unfair and a battle i would not fight.

if piano practice is a battle seriously i would drop it for now/forever- you have bigger fish to fry.

i would also not present her with this list. Whilst you really might not want to, i think that you need to agree the rules with her. Draw it up between you- both sign it. I know this seems twee but it worked better for me and my nightmare 12 year old last year.

I don't allow complaint about food at the table. Fucking rude. Even dd has known this since she was tiny. If you don't like it don't eat it - no conversation required.

Part of the reason is that if children are going 'eeeuuuw ' about a certain food it can affect younger or susceptible siblings.

I think that what you want is not unreasonable, but if you stick that list up, it will be totally counterproductive.

If she is already having issues with authority, then this will not help, and will probably get her back up.

Personally, I would work with her to make "house rules," which include her responsibilities and her rights.

Does she want to learn piano? I speak as an instrumental teacher. If she isn't practicing because she doesn't want to do it, then the lessons will be torture for her and her teacher.

Most of what you cover there comes from a lack of respect, you don't build respect back by demanding.

If I were you, I would pick the top 5 most important things, talk to her about how to make them work better for the family.

E.g. We speak to each other with respect and do not display our anger physically
We will choose a menu together each week and we will all cook and eat together
We will all get enough sleep for our needs.

That kind of thing.

I would also have a list of consequences and rewards - make it that concrete. In challenging cases in the past, the list of rewards is "Smile from Mum, spoken praise, sticker," etc, consequences "Look from Mum, spoken reminder, second reminder, time out" etc. If those are clear, and religiously stuck to, then there is no unpredictability, so if she still chooses to ignore you, she knows what will happen next.

TBH it seems that you and she are each desperately trying to control each other - she is already starting to use food as part of that. Don't sweat the small stuff, get your relationship back x

How old is hse?

seems an extreme list, especialyy giving someone work to do when they have done all there work , is excesively cruel, you may create depression if she NEVER has a break. I know from experience.

Every one of my friend's 11 year olds have a 'bed time' during the week on school nights. Are you just meant to let them stay up as late as they like?

I think that rather than sticking up a long proscriptive list you would be better to come up with an informal 'contract' every couple of weeks, whereby you get her agreement to co-operate with whatever are the biggest one or two issues of the moment for you, and in return she gets to ask for something to change, or tell you how she feels about a particular issue that she sees as unfair.

And about the piano, and 20 minutes a day being appropriate if she wants to go somewhere with it. That's the whole point. IF. Is she even allowed to have a say about the piano?

There are just too many and too detailed.
I would sit her down and draw some up together, you could use your list as a starting point and listen to her side and compromise, e.g. does she really want to play the piano or do you want her to play the piano? It needs to be much simpler and put in some fun and light relief!