in thinking my rules for dd are fair and reasonable

[Cleofartra]

following on from 'at the end of my tether' thread the other day, have booked myself and dd a double appointment to see gp about her sleep and emotional issues.

Have also spoken to the teacher who's in charge of pastoral care at the school who agrees that dd needs counselling and maybe to see the ed. psyche.

I'm now in the position of needing to set some very clear boundaries (or re-establish them - they were there before but weren't being properly adhered to) so have typed up a list of 'rules' which I'm going to laminate and stick on the fridge. I want dd to be very clear about what we expect from her in terms of behaviour.

Can you cast your eyes down it and say if you think I'm being over prescriptive. The reason I've picked on these particular things is because these are things we currently have issues with at home with dd.

Get up within ten minutes of being called in the morning and without being rude.
Shoes, books, homework and uniform put ready the night before.
All homework printed out and in bag the night before it?s due to be handed in.
Eat breakfast or take it with you.
Either make your own packed lunch or take the one which is prepared for you without complaining.
Behave properly in lessons. Write your homework down.
Get back from school by 3.30 if you don?t have an after school club or detention.
Hang your blazer and coat up, put your bag in your room and your shoes on the shoe rack.
One hour of academic work to be done every night - not in front of the television. No emailing or surfing the internet while doing schoolwork. If you haven?t been set an hour?s homework I will give you work to do.
During the week schoolwork done before television or surfing the internet.
Twenty minutes piano practice every day including at weekends.
When mum and dad say ?no?, don?t keep asking ? persistent and aggressive demands constitute harassment and are not acceptable.
No name-calling or swearing.
Respect your and our home and possessions ? any deliberate breakages or wilful damage will have to be paid for from your pocket money.
Don?t take food without asking.
No rudeness and complaining about meals. If you don?t want what?s on offer then politely decline and help yourself to fruit and toast instead.
Keep your hands and feet to yourself ? no pushing, slapping or pulling at people?s clothes.
Bed time is at 9pm during the week. Main light off 9.30pm. At the weekend you can go to bed an hour later.

"you may create depression if she NEVER has a break. I know from experience."

If she did an hour's homework a day and half an hour of piano practice, that would still give her 4 hours a day for watching tv, reading magazines and surfing the internet.

She has cruised her way through school in top sets doing NOTHING. Up to now she's done at most two hours A WEEK homework.

"Does she want to learn piano?"

Yes. And she's making good progress.

She's back from school now. She showed her teacher the marks on her arm which she made last night by sucking it. It looks like a horrible red bruise. She said she reckons her teacher thinks she's being abused at home. She also told them I smacked her round the face last night. I did raise my hand to her when she was in the process of tearing down and destroying our kitchen notice-board. I smacked her arm and my fingers brushed her face - I didn't smack her around the face. I've never done anything like that, though I have smacked her twice in the last year when she was damaging property in the home (she smashed the glass and frames of two pictures and pulled a door off its hinges. She also kicked a hole in her bedroom door).

Christ. Things go from bad to worse.

Off to the doctors with her in an hour. Wonder what she'll say.

If she's cruising through school in top sets making the effort she's making, is that not enough for you? Are you the kind of mother who constantly moves the bar higher so she never feels she's good enough?

She's clearly extremely stressed.

I mean to say, if she was naturally bright but bumping along in the bottom sets due to lack of effort you'd be right to be frustrated. But she's not, is she?

You need to tackle your relationship before you even think about her homework. Sorry, but school work is about the last thing to worry about when the kid is so clearly extremely angry and upset.

And if you are already having issues over food and control, and she is clearly bright, but never good enough I see a bulimic/anorexic in the making. It's not nice to take constructive criticism as a parent but just step back from this for a moment and read your own words.

Its not unreasonable for Cleo to want to see her reach her potential.

She sounds like a handful. Its easy to conclude this somehow must be your "fault" but in actual fact I have no idea and tend to think with kids like this there is often a personality thing that at least is feeding this being the default setting for her regardless of what's going on at home.

Sure, there might be something you AND her dad could be doing "better" but its got this way because of her, not you, I think, unless there's something going on extremely different to what you have described...

I might be wrong, but I hope people do give you a break and constructive advice...

"If she's cruising through school in top sets making the effort she's making, is that not enough for you?"

No. We live in a very rough area. Most of the children in her class come from disadvantaged families. If she was in good comp in a middle-class area and she wouldn't look like a high achiever.

I think it's worth reading the OP's original post to put this list into context-sorry for not being able to link it. Nothing against lists, but the problems she was describing did seem beyond just a firm hand and a restating of boundaries. Nothing wrong with fixing a bed time, but her daughter seemed to have massive sleep issues, get everyone into an emotional vortex, and basically not be sleeping til midnight or later, coupled with massive defiance and so on. I don't think simply saying 'well, shall we make your bedtime 9pm' is going to cut it in this situation and personally I would look to external/professional help. You can't lock a child that age in their room and she is already running away (as in getting the police out).

I am not against the suggestion of making a contract at home, focused on a few key issues. However, I think discussing her future career, piano, and so on is not the priority here, it's getting some measure of control and calm amongst her parents (who are understandably at their wits end) and then working with a counsellor/doctor to establish basic principles (getting sleeping, food right and so on) and step by step building from the ground up with standards of behaviour regarding others in the house.

I'm also struck by the fact that you feel, OP, that she is in a rough school (and feel bad about it). Is she behaving similarly to other children there? Is she trying, in some misguided way, to 'fit' in or show off? I just wonder as being G & T in a rough school can be hard, especially as she is very talented in music. I personally would be thinking if there was any way in hell we could move schools if it's that bad, and not wait the three years to get her to a specialist music school, which, if she keeps up her current behaviour, will not be where she ends up anyway. I'm guessing you have thought of this, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

You seem incredibly angry with her - and from what you say about her behaviour I can see why. I guess the difficult thing is that you are the mother so if you can't deal with being angry with her then how is she going to make sense of all the anger she has. It must be incredibly frustrating to see her wasting her potential but I agree with other posters that lots of rules aren't necessarily the way.

I worried a bit about your comment that: "She's not fussy, she's just sees that refusing to eat food I've cooked as a way of asserting her independence. Stuffing high calorie food in between meals helps her say 'no' to anything I've cooked." Seeing food as a weapon and a way of asserting control is definitely a major part of eating disorders. I would really watch this and try to give her some areas of control.

Ultimately she is never going to succeed unless she learns intrinsic motivation. Can you talk to her about what her goals are, what she might need to do to get there and what might be stopping her?

Your last post just confirms to me that you have been trying to manage alone but it's too much. Do seek as much help as possible, tell them what's happening at home, and ask for help. That way the ones in cahoots are you and the teachers and CAHMS, and she won't be able to set you and them against each other.

People are too quick to blame parents, IMO, but I can see your list was borne out of extreme frustration and not knowing what to do next.

I hope you get on ok at the doctors, I would mention both the sleep and the behavioural issues.

She won't reach her potential with this much rage and other stuff going on. It is nigh on impossible to learn effectively if you are essentially a bubbling cauldron of anger and adrenaline.

It is totally UR to blame the child IMO - she is a child. She may well have personality traits that are difficult to get on with, most people do, as adults and parents, we cope with those and try to help children to learn how to live in society. Forcing does not work. Dictating does not work. Shouting just makes them shout back. Children do not kick off in a vacuum - they need reactions and response.

There has been lots of constructive advice on this thread IMO.

OK, cleo I've read the thread more thoroughly now and I understand about the school/piano thing, and I understand why you are so desperate for her to continue with it. But she's only 11 now - year 10 is a bloody long way off! And if you are constantly telling her that she's in a shit school and the only way out is for her to excel at piano, that's a huge amount of pressure to lay on a child that age.

If she is parented very very differently (with vastly differing expectations) to most of her peer group at school you are always going to be fighting a battle there. Do you think she is being singled out for being 'posh' or 'nerdy'? She may be trying desperately to fit in, and the way she's doing it is by rejecting your values because they are what make her stand out, IYSWIM.

Seriously, if the school and the area are that bad, can you not just move? Or try for a scholarship at an independent school?

Incidentally, my 11 year old has many many of the same characteristics as your daughter (being the last one to drop even when he's eyes are out on stalks, taking food, refusing to co-operate on simple things (like cleaning his teeeth and showering) unable to deal rationally with his own anger at times, and he is incredibly absent minded and disorganised. He will leave taps running, leave lights on everywhere, phones off the hook, not flush the loo, get stuff out of the fridge and just leave it all over the kitchen - I could go on forever. And he has mild ADHD. He is also, to a large extent just a normal lazy kid! If you are naturally tidy methodical and she is naturally scatterbrained and lazy you can't change that. You have to compromise together somewhere.

And lastly, sorry if this has already been covered, but you mentioned a SN younger brother, and how she hits and slaps in anger. Is she jealous of him? Does she feel he gets all the attention because of his SN? Just a thought - not an accusation.

Ah! crossed posts OneTooMany !!

I'm worried now that your unhappiness about the school she is in is putting too much pressure on her where the piano thing is concerned. It seems to be your focus - the only hope for her future. What is she doesn't get this place at year 10? How will she feel? Big alarm bells ringing for me now.

She sounds a very unhappy DD. I think that you need to improve your relationship, with outside help, before you issue a list of rules. They are all fairly reasonable but they make it sound like a boot camp.

If she is in a rough school, they may have lots of children that behave in defiant ways, drop out, are rude and so on, so this is a problem in itself (they may not perceive it as seriously as you, alternatively they may be brilliant at pastoral care, I don't know the school).

So, there are three ways forward

1. Consider if you could move schools at all (you may have a hundred reasons why not but clearly this is not a good environment for her and you want her to escape it)

1. Do what you are already doing, getting external help wherever, whenever, parenting course, CAHMS (as some of the behaviour is extreme e.g. self-harming), school, counsellor, doctor

1. Try to make something nice in your own relationship in the meantime. Laying down more and more rules in this situation is like blowing on a fuse that has already gone off. Try that day out with her, doing her things, her way, ignore the eye rolling and general stroppiness. You can talk about the 'House Rules' at some point, but hardly when you are having this type of tit for tat over-emotional daily experience.

Good luck, I get the feeling that you love her to bits but don't like her very much at the moment, and you have a lot on your plate. You really have my sympathy as not all children are the same, and those who have nice obedient ones should thank their lucky stars as well as congratulating themselves on their super parenting.

Hi, I havent read all the coments, so apoligies if Im repeating.
Its a very long list. You have taken time writing this, but if you look away from the list would you remember every one? My point being she won't remember them all either and will be overwhelmed aswell.
IMO you should separate the list into rules and targets (eg rule: no swearing;target: breakfast)give her 3 new targets per week (choose the most upsetting ones first) and then add three new ones each week. The rules stay the same each week and are laminated on a separate list.
Maybe there could be sanctions for rules breaking, small rewards for passing a target.
She sounds from your post further down that she's having generous rewards for bad behaviour at the moment - scale these right down - its totally giving the wrong message.
Make sure you talk to her about how you love her and thats why youre doing this - that you want her to lead a successful and happy life and to have friends etc.
Also your 'rules' are very negative eg 'no', 'get back' etc Can you make these more positive sounding eg. "Always ask when taking food"
Also talk through each target/rule with why you think its important that she does it.
Well done with trying to address it and good luck

Cleo, its so clear that you really dont like the school she is at, or the area you live.

The only real solution to this is to move, because she is going to mix with those kids, its either that, or she gets bullied for not mixing with them. Either way it is going to be a lose/lose situation.

I can understand what you mean about her cruising through the lessons, especially if her peers are not at the same level she is. However dont assume that just because the other kids are from a rough background, they are not as intelligent as her, because plenty will be.

Why on earth did you let her go to this school in the first place??? Its so obvious that you hate her being there, and no doubt she knows that too, and part of the rebellion is her trying to prove perhaps that she does fit in there?

There are so many different issues causing the problems, and while I sympathise, I can also see that a few of them are of your own making, not just your daughter.

I have asked a couple of times, has she started her periods? because that is a major factor in hormonal mood swings, and will also be affecting her appetite. Her behaviour is extreme, and she seems to be crying out for attention. Telling the teachers you are hitting her? You need to tread very carefully if this is the tactics she is using as she seems to be very manipulative for an 11 yr old. A "lovebite" type mark is also quite plainly that really, and the teacher should be able to tell, but even so, it is going to be clear to that teacher that all is not well at home.

I think the doctors is a good start, and then perhaps a meeting with the teachers to make sure they are aware of the difficulties going on at home.

I hope the dr was constructive. Having a diagnosis however does not abdicate responsibility, adhd conduct disorder etc show themselves currently to be a mix of genes and environment. So what you do as a patent does matter, of course with a conduct disorder child (just as an example) parenting will be much harder, which its why you need some help in these situations. Please try to access some support and a parenting course.

sorry too many rules imho
what really matters?
Courtesy to others at home and school
Respect property
No violence or bad language
All set homework done promptly including piano
Accept that 'no' means what it says

If you listen to her she may listen to you.

Ahahaha this is even better than the other thread

You are just like my awful mother

This poor girl, she is the best in her school and it's not good enough for you

She might think she's smart and doing well, and she might be having that verified by, you know, professionals, but oh nooo you have to disabuse her of that mad notion! If she were at a real school she'd be shown for the failure she really is!!

This explains everything. Right, I'm totally fucked up because my mother didn't love me for me, and kept moving the bar ever higher. This is the route your daughter is going down. Why can't you just love her? But, but, she has a computer and you feed her! so you're definitely not neglecting her, of course.

I don't know if there's any point in giving you advice. I don't think my mother could change if she wanted to, and she certainly doesn't want to. And I am sure you are the same. Maybe one day she'll make you proud. Or maybe she'll keep rebelling. Or maybe she'll try and be a good girl, get into a really good university so you can brag to your friends and then have a long overdue total breakdown! Like me!

Do you have any idea what it's like to feel and to know that your fucking maths teacher (at your disadvantaged state school...) is a better mother figure than your mother, because she actually cares about you and accepts you when you make mistakes?! My god. I'm genuinely curious. I'm not sure how it is for my mother. Did you have a shit mother too or have you just started your own little cycle of horror for fun?

Or maybe I'm wrong and you are a perfect mother and she's just the spawn of the devil and what she needs is for you to invent extra homework for her.

I think thats a bit harsh Rina.

There are problems on both sides. Writing on walls is not acceptable behaviour, nor is smashing up furniture in the house.

I wouldnt say the Op is shit mother, I just think they have a lot of work to do before it does escalate into a situation with a totally out of control teen, who really goes off the rails and fucks her life up.

Rina, I think you might be projecting, just a teeny bit.

They are in a mess. Its hard to find a way out by yourself when relationships develop into such confrontation. Good outside support from relavant agencies will undoubtably make a huge difference.

The OP cannot see the wood for the trees at the moment. She finds it hard to like, love or deal with a very angry little girl.

Finding strategies to alter everybody's behaviour will surely work wonders.

At least the OP cares enough to try and find a solution. When I was young a good beating would have been the answer. Thank God those days have passed.

Can someone link to the other thread please? Would feel better commenting on the whole story rather than only part of it.