in thinking my rules for dd are fair and reasonable

[Cleofartra]

following on from 'at the end of my tether' thread the other day, have booked myself and dd a double appointment to see gp about her sleep and emotional issues.

Have also spoken to the teacher who's in charge of pastoral care at the school who agrees that dd needs counselling and maybe to see the ed. psyche.

I'm now in the position of needing to set some very clear boundaries (or re-establish them - they were there before but weren't being properly adhered to) so have typed up a list of 'rules' which I'm going to laminate and stick on the fridge. I want dd to be very clear about what we expect from her in terms of behaviour.

Can you cast your eyes down it and say if you think I'm being over prescriptive. The reason I've picked on these particular things is because these are things we currently have issues with at home with dd.

Get up within ten minutes of being called in the morning and without being rude.
Shoes, books, homework and uniform put ready the night before.
All homework printed out and in bag the night before it?s due to be handed in.
Eat breakfast or take it with you.
Either make your own packed lunch or take the one which is prepared for you without complaining.
Behave properly in lessons. Write your homework down.
Get back from school by 3.30 if you don?t have an after school club or detention.
Hang your blazer and coat up, put your bag in your room and your shoes on the shoe rack.
One hour of academic work to be done every night - not in front of the television. No emailing or surfing the internet while doing schoolwork. If you haven?t been set an hour?s homework I will give you work to do.
During the week schoolwork done before television or surfing the internet.
Twenty minutes piano practice every day including at weekends.
When mum and dad say ?no?, don?t keep asking ? persistent and aggressive demands constitute harassment and are not acceptable.
No name-calling or swearing.
Respect your and our home and possessions ? any deliberate breakages or wilful damage will have to be paid for from your pocket money.
Don?t take food without asking.
No rudeness and complaining about meals. If you don?t want what?s on offer then politely decline and help yourself to fruit and toast instead.
Keep your hands and feet to yourself ? no pushing, slapping or pulling at people?s clothes.
Bed time is at 9pm during the week. Main light off 9.30pm. At the weekend you can go to bed an hour later.

Many of the 'rules' are utterly reasonable (agree with others re extra homework and piano but understand you are trying to get a routine going).

She is 11, I can guarantee she does not enjoy living in a war zone. Show her these rules - for goodness sake not a laminated version! Tell her you think they are reasonable but too many. Ask her what she thinks should be left out. What she thinks consequences should be (quite possibly she will be harder on herself than you would be and watch out for that). Give her a little autonomy within the framework. Don't forget to ask her what you can do to help her - would she like you to remind her about the dirty plates or ignore it and she will suffer the consequences?

Select a couple that you as the adult will insist on - no violence for a start! Then give her as much choice as possible.

Having agreed a few rules (laminate if you must ) set a review date, say a month. On this date go though a similar process. What does she think should be worked on next? What would she like to be in control of (probably having a messy bedroom for starters!).

The key for her will be increased autonomy over her life within the family ethos of respect for each other. Please also let her know how much you love her and how you hate the arguing too!

BTW - let her dictate the television a few nights and you and husband others. If you choose to watch something that is inappropriate for her she will need to absent herself. Living in a family is always give and take.

Sorry, it sounds contradictory. I mean, have a break from each other and then maybe go away together and see each other from a fresh point of view.
There's more to your relationship than all this tension.
You need to see the wood for the trees maybe, a break of somekind a way from each other (somehow) and then a break together on your own away from all the domestic triggers.
Maybe hard to do but worth it to make peace?

Does she want all this tension at home. I would guess she doesnt either.

Have you tried saying "ok, lets make a new start, from today, lets try and get on, because until you are 16, you live under this roof, as part of this family, and when you are 16, you can do whatever you like, but while you are here, there are rules that we all have to live by"

There is too much wrong to fix all at once, and she is at a very awkward age for any kid, but especially girls who are hitting puberty right now.

She probably feels her little brother gets more attention than she does and any attention she gets is negative (deservedly so because of her behaviour).

Compromise is usually a better solution than complete lockdown and draconian rules.

I do think you also have to make some compromises too.

Just wanted to also add to sit down with dd and agree sanctions for rule breaking ie If she hits etc what she can expect to happen ie, no computer may be an option. but agree them together and stick to them.

also look at your expectations of her. ie, it is fair in my opinion for an 11 year old to need support and help with getting her things ready the night before, tidying bedroom attending to laundry etc. this can be done with out a battle if it is built into a routine and you can do it with her or even for her if it is acceptable due to ime constraints.

Don'tdiss

When we asked ds1 to come up with punishments hecwas way harder than we would have been. I have always wondered - why do children do that?

Op, I didn't see your thread before. Can I ask when you sit down and talk to her calmly can she explain her poor behaviour? Do you think she is happy?

how about sitting down and working out some rules together that you can both stick to

I don't think kids should be able to just grab whatever food they want and eat it. Likewise being really draconian and making the child beg for a snack could lead to eating issues such as Polarbear mentioned.

Could you put it positively - eg you can help yourself to fruit and toast whenever you like. If you would like something else please check with me first as I may have planned to use it in a meal in the week etc.

Think the piano practice could be slimmed down to 5 days a week that she is allowed to nominate at the start of the new regime. What grade is she at? Does she want to do it? There is a balance here. Kids do need a bit of push to master an instrument. At the same time its joyless to slave away if you hate it. You have to have a sensitive hand on the reign .. Could you put the practice in context eg, if you are planning to do your grade x in the Spring, then you need to be doing x mins of practice 5 days a week to achieve that.

Homework - no don't set work if school didn't set it - thats not fair.

Hi there

I think putting up a list is a good idea BUT
you need to simplify it into key points that she can easily follow otherwise she will take one look at that level of detail and think sod it!

Start small. Once she is following key rules, you can add more, perhaps even subtract some.

You also need to add incentives or punishments. Why should she follow them just because they are written down when she doesn't bother at the moment. There needs to be a reason for it.

I should add too. With my dcs rules asked if there were any they would find hard and was there anything we could do to help.

Ds1 wanted me to get an alarm that he could put his iPod into and he chose good music to make him wake up and he asked me to have a list in the kitchen of his kit rota so he didn't have to remember each day.

I offering to help them is good and talking about how proud you and they will feel when they are able to be much more grown up

Thankyou everyone for you input - I'm reading and re-reading this thread and taking your comments on board.

Re: the homework thing - dd's self-esteem is low at the moment. She's a very clever girl, is on the gifted and talented register at school, but puts no effort into her work at all. I feel very bad that she's going to such a rough school and isn't being stretched educationally. I really do think that putting some effort into her work and getting praise for it would do her a lot of good, give her a feeling of achievement. At present she really just doesn't bother with homework at all. She gets very little and what she does get she does as quickly as possible, and takes no pride in. But re-reading the list I do see that's going to have to come off. As far as piano practice goes - she does have to do it because it's her way out of the shit school she's in. She's very musical and has a fantastic piano teacher who feels she's got a lot of potential. She wants to apply to a very good local performing arts school for year 10 (they don't take them before this), but will need to audition.

She loves her music and singing but needs to develop self-discipline. I really believe in regular practice and since we've got a bit tough about this her playing has improved no end. In fact it's the one thing in her life and education which is going well and which we both feel positive about. But she's very, very lazy and self-indulgent and needs to be prodded to practice. As I did when I was a child.

Re: spoiling her with expensive treats. This is mostly DH and it's something I feel very uncomfortable about. I do think it's got to stop. I don't mind allowing her to (sometimes) choose what tv we watch, because to a certain extent it's a bonding thing - we watch the shows she likes together and chat and laugh about them. It's something she really looks forward to.

And thank you again everyone. I wrote the OP in a fit of anxiety and frustration. Will re-write it to make it more workable.

Am I the only one who finds it interesting that one of her programmes of choice to watch is Supernanny?

To me that makes me think she's looking for help.

I hope you can sort this out for all of you.

What about something more along the lines of:

No rudeness

Look after yourself,room and belongings

Help out with jobs around the house when asked

Homework before tv/pc

Not behaving = witholding of a priviledge

Must have lots of fun at weekends!!!!

These rules can be applied to each member of household and can easily be remembered.
The list you drew up could make her suffer from low self esteem.

I think that you need to choose your battles here. Instead of making a long list (which only serves to tell her that she does X,Y and Z wrong) you need to re-look at the list and choose four or five of the most impacting behaviours that she needs to work on.

You're making a mountain out of a molehill with things like shoes away/eat breakfast (if she doesn't eat, SHE will get hungry. She will learn!)/no complaining about meals. It's standard stuff at her age. Deal with that day-by-day. If she's done her homework, not been rude and not got herself into detention then it seems a bit churlish to chuck a benny because she didn't pick her shoes up.

Jeeesus she is 11 and she has to go to bed at 9! omg how archaic!

9! My son of 11 used to go to sleep around 11, I never told him when to go he goes when he is tired, he is 17 now.

Some of the other things are okay.

But does she like the piano or is it more you like her to do it.

I would never force a child to do something just because I wanted them to.

Also why home by 3.30 why can't she see her friends and chat for a bit after school?

Is she not allowed to be sociable?

Agree with much of Bubble's post too but not sure I would say "until you are 16" as that implies she might not be welcome at home in the not too distant future. I think your DD is feeling all at sea and, much as she fights it, security is what she needs. She wants you to stand firm for her no matter how rough a ride she gives you.

She might behave like she hates you but she is only 11 and the thought of not living with you will be incomprehensible to her ...

How about "until you are a grown up" instead?

I am sorry you are going through this. Some posters have great suggestions re) condensing the rules down to make them seem more manageable, others have been less helpful. I have a child whose behaviour is quite challenging and it is hard when others are so quick to judge when you are trying your best and most of the time banging your head against a brick wall. I truly syhmpathise.

Is your DD reacting to the fact that she has a SN brother? I would seek professional help if I were you and I hope you and she can get this sorted sooner rather than later.

xx

Have just read your last post OP.

My dd is 9 and is G & T for reading and writing however, she puts as little amount of effort into homework/tidying room as possible.

I think she's a 'thinker' and finds it hard to deal with emotional stuff growing up and being practical like tidying etc.

Just because they are G & T doesn't mean they'll find other things easy too. DD gets upset about what are to me trivial things but to her are very important.

Does your DD do drama/dance in any form?
I know she plays piano but that's less about letting off steam in her own way but again following rules.

With something like joining a local amdram group, she could perhaps find herself and gain some self esteem and confidence?

Some posters have objected to the piano practice. Is she good at the piano? I don't think it hurts to "make" children do things they'd rather not do. I was allowed to do what I liked as a child/teenager and TBH I wished my parents had made me stick at stuff, practice instruments/sports etc as I just gave them up and regretted it in later life.

I think you've had good advice here and I'm glad you are going to rewrite the rules. One thing that I don't think has been said yet - buy her an alarm clock. If you and she are battling, don't make a request from you (to get up) the first thing she hears!

My 11yo goes to bed at nine - and he's far from alone on these boards!

take dd out for the day on saturday. spend some time together away from the house doing mummy/daughter stuff. tell her you would like to spend a whole day with her and let her help pla it but avoid cinema or activities where you dont talk. go for a long walk and out to lunch. tell dh you need him to manage the other kids while you do this. if a whole day is totally unfeasable how about friday evening? ask a friend/family to help out with the other kids if needs be.

talk talk talk but about anything she wants. be friends again.

if you are feeling brave think about suggesting the follwing conversation 'if your (dd) life was totally perfect - what would it be like' ask her to describe it is loads of details. tease out reasons for her choices/desires.

tell her how much you enjoyed spending time with her to show her that your relationship is more than just constant opposition - as longstokicng says.

complete aside. if this packed lunch thing is such as issue can she have school dinners?