in thinking my rules for dd are fair and reasonable

[Cleofartra]

following on from 'at the end of my tether' thread the other day, have booked myself and dd a double appointment to see gp about her sleep and emotional issues.

Have also spoken to the teacher who's in charge of pastoral care at the school who agrees that dd needs counselling and maybe to see the ed. psyche.

I'm now in the position of needing to set some very clear boundaries (or re-establish them - they were there before but weren't being properly adhered to) so have typed up a list of 'rules' which I'm going to laminate and stick on the fridge. I want dd to be very clear about what we expect from her in terms of behaviour.

Can you cast your eyes down it and say if you think I'm being over prescriptive. The reason I've picked on these particular things is because these are things we currently have issues with at home with dd.

Get up within ten minutes of being called in the morning and without being rude.
Shoes, books, homework and uniform put ready the night before.
All homework printed out and in bag the night before it?s due to be handed in.
Eat breakfast or take it with you.
Either make your own packed lunch or take the one which is prepared for you without complaining.
Behave properly in lessons. Write your homework down.
Get back from school by 3.30 if you don?t have an after school club or detention.
Hang your blazer and coat up, put your bag in your room and your shoes on the shoe rack.
One hour of academic work to be done every night - not in front of the television. No emailing or surfing the internet while doing schoolwork. If you haven?t been set an hour?s homework I will give you work to do.
During the week schoolwork done before television or surfing the internet.
Twenty minutes piano practice every day including at weekends.
When mum and dad say ?no?, don?t keep asking ? persistent and aggressive demands constitute harassment and are not acceptable.
No name-calling or swearing.
Respect your and our home and possessions ? any deliberate breakages or wilful damage will have to be paid for from your pocket money.
Don?t take food without asking.
No rudeness and complaining about meals. If you don?t want what?s on offer then politely decline and help yourself to fruit and toast instead.
Keep your hands and feet to yourself ? no pushing, slapping or pulling at people?s clothes.
Bed time is at 9pm during the week. Main light off 9.30pm. At the weekend you can go to bed an hour later.

Cleo

Re expanding your bright DDs mind, could you find a way that did this while allowing you to share time together and her getting your attention too?

Eg courses for kids, museums, galleries, concerts. Getting her really interesting in something and sharing time together too. Much better than setting her a load of extra written work to go off and do on her own.

The brightest and most academically successful people I know (and I know a lot) come from families where there was always a lot of discussion around the dinner table and shared activities that were primarily sharing time together but also stimulating. Just one example, my BF lived on a smallholding and built a mini windfarm with her physicist father - needless to say she got top marks in science and she still has a very enquiring mind.

Do you make music with her?

Ok I get the homework bit and maybe simple revision tools are not unacceptable but maybe make it half an hour, ie times tables, spellings etc anything SHE thinks she could do with a bit of extra in or just half hour reading a book or find a good revision website for her age and carry out a quiz on line, ie bbc bitesize or something maybe you can ask for some recomendations from other mners for good sites.

"Am I the only one who finds it interesting that one of her programmes of choice to watch is Supernanny?"
Galena I was going to say this as well. Could this be used as a lead-in to a discussion with her about what is acceptable behaviour, why do parents have to discipline children, isn't family life much happier when everyone knows the rules, boundaries and consequences?

I agree with others that it's a very long list. I think as others have said, you need to sit down with her and agree the things she wants/needs to work on first. I would put money on her not being happy with the statud quo either, she sounds frustrated and demotivated.

A given should be that you all treat each other with respect, no swearing, no hitting, etc. but that should be for everyone, and not part of her 'action plan' so to speak.

After that, I would agree with her 3 things that she will work on first, say e.g. do an hours homework (but not if there isn't any!), get your things ready before school, and write your homework down.

When she has got into that routine, pick the next three things. As she is working on the new things, she will already be reaping the rewards of the previous things. Also incentives for long-term adherence would be a reward to show you are recognising her progress.

All at once, it's too much, and makes it sound like she's Your Worst Nightmare and needs rules to be fixed.

D

" I never told him when to go he goes when he is tired, he is 17 now."

DD is the last child standing at every single party and sleep-over she's ever been to. If she was allowed to stay up until she admitted she was tired she wouldn't got to sleep until after me and DH every night. And then she'd need to sleep in until 1pm to cope the next day.

Also why home by 3.30 why can't she see her friends and chat for a bit after school?"

She can. It only takes her 10 minutes to walk home from school and she finishes at 2.50. Her friends are welcome to come to the house. Maybe if I lived in a decent area I wouldn't mind her hanging around the streets after school, but where I live it's very scary and rough. None of the parents I know who live locally would be happy with their 11 year old lurking around the parks or on street corners long after school finished.

Is she not allowed to be sociable?

Bumps.. it is giving her the choice though. Hopefully by the time she is 16, all this will be a long forgotten nightmare for everyone.. but at the moment I imagine the daughter is going through the "I hate you, I cant wait to leave home" stage..

I also think that she may be getting led astray at school. Gifted and talented she may be, but that can all fly out of the window very quickly when you make the wrong friends, because you are so desperate to impress, and not be seen as the class swot, that you deliberately fuck it up. (I was that child!).

Funnily enough, I was also very good at piano, but gave that up too at 11, because it wasnt "cool".

I would never have dared graffiti my walls though, as that would have resulted in a very sore backside and I wouldnt have been allowed out, or given any treats for a very long time.

OP, just read your most recent post and think your idea about improving her self-esteem and confidence re: getting praise for her work, is spot on but rather than have a miserable rule requiring her to do homework why not privately set yourself a goal to notice the homework she does do and to praise her, to read what she has written and congratulate her. Look for stuff to praise, tiny things to start with but hopefully finding more to praise as she grows in confidence.

Can't remember if I posted this link on your other thread - but it might be worth looking at - all sorts of stuff about self-esteem, setting rules, working together as a family here.

PS sounds like you feel bad you haven't been able to "buy" a better school for your DD, or to move to a better catchment. But be wary of making the music school at year 10 the be all and end all - I was struck with how you seem to already have a concrete plan for that in three years time. Also that you are in danger of using an interest of your DDs to address one of your fears, ie that her school is a let down.

Is your DD getting good marks at school, even though not perhaps really going for it? She must be doing OK to have been put on their G&T register? If so, at 11, does it matter that she isn't working to max potential with every bit of homework?

I was a clever kid and never really worked hard at school and still did well, getting all As at A level and getting into a top univ. Maybe your DD doesn't see the point in pushing herself?

The only thing she wants to eat at the moment are sausages, cheese, chocolate, preserved meat products, plastic bread and sweets. She used to eat anything.

Sounds like PMT to me, her hormones are probably all over the place so that she feels PMTish all the time. Could you plonk a better snack in front of her the minute she gets in from school, or move the main evening meal forward?

Hi,
" feel very bad that she's going to such a rough school and isn't being stretched educationally."

So sorry you're going through it. She sounds like she's testing boundaries as she may not be getting any at school. You're right to curb her bad behaviour, or she'll not know where she is. Haven't read the whole thread, but is everything OK at school. My DD was an absolute nightmare at home (aged 10), until she admitted someone was being mean to her in class. Got it sorted with the teacher, and hey presto, back to being a little devil not a big nasty one!
xx

I had less rules to follow when I was in the military!

Joking aside, it's a list written in a very patronising way - I can understand your frustrations, it's so wearing having to parent a child like that. But it's a vicious circle too - patronise her and treat her like a 6 year old and she'll probably behave like one, and the more childish her behaviour the more you treat her like one.

Can you sit down together and say "Right DD, we're in trouble here. We're all behaving badly and making each other unhappy, what do you think we can do to be a happier family?"

Let her make some decisions as to how to work on improving things - she may surprise you. But of course as the parent you get final say; however hearing her opinions may make her feel more involved in changing her behaviours.

Her wanting to watch Supernanny is quite telling, IMO.

Good luck.

Wow, are you running a home or a prison camp?

If she has emotional problems then I think you've just shown me what the cause is.

And why can't she help herself to food in her own house? Or is food a privilege?

And I don't think you are unreasonable to expect her to follow most of the stuff on that list, but as others have said, it's just too long, and gives her more excuses to rebel and argue.

I think the things you expect are very reasonable...

I agree with the others though about introducing them step by step - I would start with the behaviour, ie hitting, slapping, respecting property.

I would also ask her what she would like you to do for her and get her to do a list. I find that works well as things come out that you hadn't thought of/didn't think were important.

Good luck with it all....

Agree with choccy - I reckon it's a lot to do with hormones. Not just the eating thing but the rudeness/being grumpy/not getting up/generally being teeanage-like.

This is what I think my dd is beginning to go through and at only 9, I'm worried she'll start puberty early, poor thing.

"she does have to do it because it's her way out of the shit school she's in. She's very musical and has a fantastic piano teacher who feels she's got a lot of potential. She wants to apply to a very good local performing arts school for year 10 (they don't take them before this), but will need to audition"

Seriously, if she is aware of this, and is the one wanting to apply to the performing arts school, just leave it in her hands. If she doesn't do it, she will bomb out, this kind of thing simply has to be self-motivated.

If you make her do it, there is a point at which she may no longer want to be doing it but you wont know where that point came, and she might fail to nurture a different, more relevant talent.

Seriously there was a time I liked playing the piano, but by the time I was at Uni doing a degree in music performance, I didn't want to be doing it, and I'm fecked if I can tell you at what point my mother pushing this took over, it just did. I did finally rebel and change course and actually I did eventually move to the other side of the world too and I'm still here. I maanged to forge a very successful career for myself, just one that I wanted, not the one my mother wanted.

You might need to take a step back in all this, you really might.

As for the food - I agree in essence you shouldnt' all be effected but if you are eating Brie, Chorizo, and chocolate on a regular enough basis to the extent she is able to polish off that much of it on even a weekly basis, you are both headed for heart disease or cancer. Is there a way you can make it more of an occasional treat without feeling too deprived?

Tatty hits on a good point there regarding the food.

How about on a saturday, you have a family night.. buy in a load of brie, chocolate, chorizo etc.. take daughter shopping with you, let her help pick stuff that she likes, and do a little buffet of picky stuff between you with her helping, then shove a dvd on that ALL the family like, and have a mini party..

that way YOU get to eat the stuff you all like, she has some input in it, everyone should be in a good mood..

make one night a week a family night when there is no piano, no homework, no bedtime rules, no nagging, and hopefully no arguing..

take away the temptations during the week, but with a promise of a special night for all of you on the saturday if the week has gone smoothly..

Yep good idea Bubblewrapped. Its more of a "moderation" approach but without the "militant".

OP, agree about the piano. Best friend in same situation - now very grateful!

The rules are common sense. Could you do it verbally though? EG at bedtime - if you get up tomorrow and get out of the door on time and without being rude I'll extend your time to need to be home until 4pm. When she comes in, if you put your things away and do piano practice you can have lap top for 1/2 hour before homework? etc etc. That way shes always got something to look forward/ work towards.

After a week or 2 don't tell her. If she does get up ready etc in morning, tell her shes done well and made you proud and can come home at 4pm that evening. the biggest reward for your dd will be you being proud and noticing the good things she does.

Re lap top/ tv. I recently changed the terms of use for these for DS (6). Instead of losing time for bad behaviour he earns it for good. So if he asks for the lap top and I say yes he knows instinctively he's been behaved.

Best of luck OP, you are a good/ caring parent or you wouldn't be trying to sort this.

I might be wrong and I dont mean this in an off way but you sound a little "decadant". I have often thought its almost easier to do things "right" if you've got sod all money than if you have spare disposable income. A lot of the traps that are easy to fall into if you have spare cash are simply not an option if you are living hand to mouth. Consequently things slip and members of the family can fall ill with "affluenza"...or am I talking out my ass?

Can you try and start distinguishing between thos ethings that effect you and those that effect her.

For example: if she is
late for school
doesn't hand in homework
fails to practice her piano
doesn't take her pack lunch
dumps uniform on floor

then she will face the consequences of detention/hunger/being scruffy.

IMO I would let her get on with that stuff.

Then concentrate on the bigger issues for you as a family: no violence and no rudeness.

Oh and OP re the foods shes craving - has she had her iron levels tested? If they are low it may explain a lot of what is happening at the moment.

Pick and choose your arguments, i always think the best homework rule is to accept the consequences if you don't do it [bwink]

9pm is right for an 11 year old, it's my 11 year olds bedtime.

If I were I your position Id despatch your dh and ds to the park or whatever sit down with your dd and a cake and suggest that you write up some rules together. This will enable her to make her own suggestions and feel that she has some control over her own life. I'd go all out to be as smiley and positive as possible. Tell her you love her and that you're worried that family life isn't making any of you happy so it's time to work out a new way of being. Come from a whole family point of view and not make it all about what she's doing wrong. Be prepared to own up and apologies for things that you do wrong.

Concentrate on using language that's all about what you want her to do and not want you don't want her to do.

Ask her how much time she thinks she needs per day for homework and piano, when and where she'd prefer to do it and which days she wants as a day off. No homework or music practise on a Friday night in this house for example.

Give her strategies for dealing with her frustrations, for example ds (8) goes and punches his pillow if he feels angry, dd(11) goes to her room if dd2 is being annoying.

Make family time fun and worth being good for, not just about watching tv - I have to make an effort with this one, but my lot love planning Monopoly for example, which drives me nuts.

Remember all that toddler behaviour stuff still works at this age - praise her when she's doing what you want and try not to get too riled when she's messing about.

Don't forget to smile at her

Let her break the rules on occasion, but let her know you're allowing it so give her a wink and a nodd towards the clock when it's 9.15 on a Thursday night.