To ask my friend to delay returning from maternity leave by 8 weeks?

[phonicspusher]

I am doing maternity cover for a very good friend of mine and she is planning to return to work when her baby is 7 months old. I was pregnant at the beginning of the job and would have been 36 weeks when she returned but I miscarried this baby (she knows this but is just about the only one that does). I am now pregnant again and will be 22 weeks when she returns. I now will not be eligible for maternity pay because I need to be working during week 29(mat pay is very good where we work - worth around four months salary - which would be brilliant as I have no work and no prospect of work after this!!) . Would it be unreasonable to ask her to consider delaying her return to work for 8 weeks so I could get this pay? Presumably it would be illegal to incentivise this in some way if the delay would leave her short of cash? And how will our friendship survive if she says no - I'm so incredibly anxious about money and devastated about the previous pregnancy not working out and I sort of expect her to understand this - I keed thinking "Well, I'd do it for her..."..And although obviously the thing is, please God, to have a healthy baby I do just think its like a kick in the teeth to have worked in this place for 10 years and be out by 8 weeks for maternity pay... grrrr/arrggh!!! WWYD?

I dont think she is s contract worker.

That was one of the questions I had what kind of contract do other people get eg if you are a bus driver or teacher or secretary or bank manager? are you employed f0r ever? is it renewed every year?

I think my employer thought they could just deal with the problem by giving me a contract for 6 months once they had advertised my job!!!!
it worked though

She has worked back to back contracts for the same employer for 10 years ilovecrisps.

Sorry I'm referring to the link above talking about contractors ie those who set up their own company and pay themselves dividends to avoid paying tax but were subsequently deemed to be allowed employment rights.

I don't think it applies in her situation

Oh I see, sorry

FWIW

aftera lot of digging and asking here there and everywhere the best I could find was that if you are not employed for your qualifying week then you are not entitled to the pay but you might get redundancy however if you are on a fixed term contract you probably wouldn't (my situation was quite different in that I was only issued a fixed term contract when I was on mat leave and after my employer advertised my job. I think I should have been made redundant but didn't persue it because of the threats about future employability.

my disclaimer is that I have no legal knowledge experience etc just what I think from reading

I don't think you are unreasonable to think about this or even to talk to your friend about this, so long as you go about it in the right way and make it very clear up front that she is under no obligation to say yes and that if she does say no then it won't make any difference as you will still be in the same place as you always were, IYSWIM.

If she does say yes, then that would be fantastic. But if she doesn't then you must know within yourself that you won't ever hold it against her or think 'but I would have done it' or ponder on what it would be like if she had done it - and make sure that she knows this and that she won't hold it against you.

It sounds like you are quite good friends - have you got a feeling of how she is enjoying her maternity leave or how she is looking forward (or not) to going back to work - might give you an opening into discussing it with her and a feel for how she might react.

it may be that she would like to stay at home a couple of months longer - but doesn't want to approach you because she is worried that you wouldn't want to be at work pregnant.

Is there any way that you could talk to your HR to get some sort of agreement that if she did extend her maternity leave that:

a) you would be able to extend your contract to do the work (in case they don't want to pay your maternity leave and have spotted what you are doing)

b) if you did extend your maternity leave then she would still be able to come back into her job (assuming she wants to go back into that job!)

From what you have written here, you could agree it with her but there is no guarantee that there wouldn't be some smartass HR person that still finishes your contract when it is supposed to, gets somebody new in to do the job permanently and then moves your friend into difficult-to-fill position they have been having problems recruiting for when she returns from her maternity leave.

As for working out a financial deal between you, how is anyone to know what it is? If anyone gives anyone any money they don't have to make any declaration of why they are giving it do they? You could always set it up as 'christening gift' to their dc for their bank account rather than a payment or load up a pre-pay store card (do they have pre-pay type 'credit' cards these days?) and give it to them. Or do a bank transfer and they declare it to the taxman etc.

And of course, following on from so many other posters, regardless of what you ask your friend, you need to be finding out pdq whether or not you will be able to be counted as a 'real' employee with regard to getting your maternity leave as it may make asking your friend a moot issue anyhow! But if that is the case - and you can get it anyway, if your friend had already said 'yippee another couple of months with baby' then would you still be happy to work for another couple of months knowing that you wouldn't need to in order to get your maternity money - wouldn't be fair on her to change if she didn't want to.

Only other thing is to talk to her sooner rather than later in case she has been making plans for coming back, she may be having problems gettng childminder or nursery place so an extra couple of months would be handy to get the right place. Or she might not want to pay for something she has already set up - but the sooner she knows the better.

If you have had back to back contracts for the same employer, this is classed as continuous employment and so you should be entitled to the benfits for being employed for that length of time (i.e 10 years).
Has there been any break in your contracts? Or have they simply been renewed each time?

Are you for real? Of course you?re being unreasonable! That you even have to ask, and that some posters agree with you, is shocking and a horrifying look at how entitled people are. I?ve read through this whole thread and I can hardly believe it. I almost hope someone who knows you IRL see this recognizes you and reports you to HR!

I don?t really care how ?nice, kind and generous? a person you are, this is wrong on so many levels. It puts your friend in a huge dilemma of not only having to consider YOUR problems weighed against her own life, but the possible implications of reporting or not reporting your requests.
I really don?t know how employment is run wherever you are, but I have worked in HR in Canada and this would be illegal. And if you did it and were caught your friend would be just as liable. I really can?t see why it would be ok in any country. It is fraud and is out and out taking advantage of a benefit system you are not entitled to at this point. Yes it is unfortunate that the timing works out this way and it is unfortunate that you lost your first baby. I am sorry you are struggling, but the simple facts remain.

You choose to work in this career field ( short term contracts for over 10 years) that leaves you not entitled to this attractive pay packet. Other posters have stated that this seems like a way for a employer to get out of paying benefits, and this may be the case. But even if this is the case, you?ve had 10 years to either accept these conditions of employment or re-train/move into another field or find another employer in the same field with terms that are more to your liking. That you choose to stay implies that the conditions were acceptable to you. Now that things have changed in your life, you don?t get to manipulate the terms from what you have accepted and agreed to, to something more lucrative for you. Now if your employer is contravening employment laws then you have every right to call them to task on THAT( I would do what other posters have suggested and look into it) but not to try and commit a fraud to get what you feel is owed to you. Especially at your friends expense.

You choose to structure you financial obligations ( mortgage ect you are worried about paying) based on a job and pay that is not secure, especially if you choose to take time out to have children. ?Living within your means? means considering what happens down the road when the contract ends. Given that you have done this work for 10 years it can come as no surprise that you would be at risk( unless spectacular timing on pregnancy) to be without a job/maternity benefits if you decided to have children. You should have planned accordingly.

And finally you CHOSE to have this child. I get that it is a very much wanted child following on a devastating loss but It is still your personal life choice that no one else is responsible for (especially financially). Not your friend, or as things stand, your employer.

I would say put this out of your mind as a desperate idea that is no good. Do not ask! Not only do you put your friend in an untenable situation, but you also stand to make things very hard on yourself. Again I don?t know the relevant labour laws here( though if I were you I?d be finding some independent professional advice stat!) but I know that if I was your friend I?d protect myself and my family ( and my career) and report any such request to HR. No matter how much ?maternity clothes and such? you?ve given. They are leagues apart in terms of an expectation of return.

Also even if there is no legal consequences, if I was your employer and even got a wiff of what you are doing ( fraud ) I?d never employ you again as a ?contract? and I?d make sure everyone in my field knows why. You claim to be a good person and you probably are for all I know, but from an employer?s/friend?s POV this does not demonstrate that. Forget this bad idea. And for the love of god don?t do what zipzap said about the money! Do you really think that if this ever came to an investigation that those flimsy excuses would hold up? Seriously?

YABVU, you choose to bring a child into the world knowing you had no job in a few months.

You cant ask this of her, its wrong and very unfair. Why should she go without a salary, possibly still have to pay childcare etc just so that you benefit. You should have thought about the financial consequences before planning your child.

You may also push her from OML to AML where she may not get her old role back, although unlikely if you are covering it.

Audi4prez:
I really don?t know how employment is run wherever you are

This is the most prescient sentence in your post. Fraud is a criminal offence carrying a potential gaol term. It's laughable that you suggest what the OP is proposing is fraudulent. It's highly unlikely that it it breaches the term of her contract, so that would only leave gross misconduct as a cause for dismissal but this too is unlikely as what the OP is suggesting is a private agreement between staff that causes no substantive financial, repetitional or operational damage to the employer.

OP - you should discuss with your friend. This is a personal arrangement between you and your friend and your employer has virtually no chance of doing anything about it if they find out, and chances are they won't even care providing you are doing a good job as maternity cover.

Arghhh! Reputational!

Audi has a point about fraud. You would be conspiring together to secure an advantage - and the NHS has a counter-fraud office. Staff are encouraged to report activity to that office.

Sorry but I think YABU too. I would never put a friend of mine in such an awkward position. It's almost like you are trying to 'guilt' her into putting your own situation before hers when she has just had her own family. We've had many hard times financially but they have been ours to sort out and we would never have expected anyone else to do it for us.

Audi does not have a point about fraud, it is not fraudulent. Morally there could be a question perhaps but not legally unless it is dealt with in the contract somewhere (somehow I doubt that).

Audi you are easily shocked but what I find most shocking is that you are not at all shocked and righteous about the way the company has behaved - what they have done is illegal.

As for "entitled" don't even get me started - that phrase is becoming the new "it's PC gorn mad"

I can see where you're coming from, but I am just wondering if your friend will be putting her baby into childcare. If so, a 7 month old will settle fairly quickly. 9 months is a classic age for separation anxiety and would be much harder for the baby.

If you have had genuine back to back contracts for 10 years (i.e. no breaks), your situation at the end of your contract will be the same as being made redundant. This means if you work to 25 weeks you are entitled to statutory maternity pay. This is not some public sector over-spending, it is the law. Pisses me off when people assume the public sector is being wasteful when all it's doing is fulfilling its legal obligations.

YABU to ask your friend, but I don't think there's anything wrong with a conversation checking she definitely wants to come back at the date she'd planned, since lots of people change their return date. Mentioning your own finances as part of that conversation would be unreasonable.

hogsback:
How do you figure it not fraudulent?
She is seeking to make an arrangement with another employee to extend her contract past the expected date( by getting her friend to delay her expected return to work for no reason other than her friends benefit) in order to secure benefits( financial) that she is NOT entitled to if her friend comes back on time and her contract ends as expected. Her employer will then have to pay out benefits( maternity wage) that they should not have to, based on two peoples 'private agreement'. An agreement where she plans on 'compensating' her friend for her trouble.

It might seem like a small thing but clearly we are talking about a substantial amount of money or the OP wouldn't be concerned with going after these benefits. While I doubt she would be prosecuted( Although you never know government employees in BC have a zero tolerance policy for fraud/theft and are always prosecuted so maybe her employer feels the same, bit of a risk I'd say)I can see where there is a case from the employers POV for financial damages( they have to pay benefits when they should not have to) operational ( delaying a return even if there is cover can affect working conditions/scheduling especially if HR was expecting a return of x date) and reputation ( who wants an employee who will do everything in their power to cheat their employer out of money?)

If this is above the board, and peachy keen, as so many seem to think then why doesn't the OP, her friend, HR, and relevant bosses sit down and work out an agreement hmm? why the need for 'personal agreements' and shady tactics to hand over money( as zipzap suggests)? because it's wrong that's why.

Audi:

It's not fraud because there is no deception or falsity. The OP's friend can extend her maternity leave for any reason or none and does not have to give any reason to her employer, in fact the employer cannot even ask her when she is c

Damn iPhone!

Continuing....

...coming back, the employer works on the assumption that she will take 52 weeks off.

It may be morally wrong, but I fail to see the benefit of holding the moral high ground over an employer that abuses short term contracts in order to circumvent employment rights.

Sorry only read the first 2 pages so I'm still in the dark about how or why you won't get maternity pay.

All I can say is how I would feel in your friends situation which I think is the best way to look at it.

Basically if you had asked me and it were not a finacial hardship I would be fine with it.

Don't make her feel obligated and maybe find out how she is feeling about returning before you ask .

I timed my materniy leave to help a colleague who would take over my job because I knew she needed the money and we are not even friends outside of work

No you shouldn't ask as you put her in an awful position.

Another aspect that has not been mentioned is she has probably already arranged childcare for when she returns to work. If she wanted to keep this place she would probably have to pay for it.

What Ihavepets said.

If she is really a good friend, discuss it with her.

OP, I think YABU. I'm so sorry for your loss, and for the fact that you are to miss out on maternity benefits for the sake of eight weeks after ten years of service (if indeed that is the case). However, I really don't think you can approach your friend with this proposition, it's just not right. Planning to return to work is such an emotive time, with so many permutations for her to consider - it's incredibly unfair to ask her to factor in a friend's financial circumstances alongside her own considerations.

It's one thing to risk your own professional reputation - but quite another to put your friend in this dreadfully awkward situation. If she had any sense at all, she wouldn't touch it with a bargepole. Please don't do it.

Trying to think from my perspective and what I would do if my friend asked me. I wouldn't feel that you are putting me into an awful position, you are merely trying to find out if it would work for her. You must however make it clear to her that it bears no consequence on your friendship whatever her decision is. If she is happy to go along, good luck, if not because she needs the money or has other arrangements, then so be it.

If she is a good friend, I don't see the harm in asking. Only you can know what her reaction to you even asking will be. Good luck.

It absolutely would be gross misconduct and yes, fraud, as the employer would be paying out money that it would not otherwise have to. And yes both women would be in trouble - a huge (!) ask of even the best friend!!!

Also, you really need to take the advice re contract workers and the length of time/sole nature of your work - you would be counted as a permananet employee for tax purposes if investigated; therefore you are well able to mount a case re benefits and your union will advise you of this.

what worries me most about this thread is that you are not willing to pursue your claim throught the right channels - to put your friend at risk of dismissal is beyond unreasonable unless she understands and volunteers to take the risk.