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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think that children shouldn't be screaming and running around in a library?

378 replies

PeeringIntoAFestiveVoid · 06/01/2011 21:32

I have a feeling I'm going to get toasted to a perfect 'well done' shade of brown here.... Grin

I went to the library with DD today, and as we came in, there was a woman with a pushchair standing at the desk. As I was returning our books (not at the desk) and browsing, there were two children running around, screaming and shouting - the younger boy looked about three, the older boy five or so. They seemed to be with the mum at the desk, as she occasionally ssshhhed them (of which they took no notice at all). There was an older boy who looked to be six or seven, who joined in with the shouting and running from time to time, but wasn't causing the same chaos as the littler ones. The toddler had an utterly ear piercing shriek (I really can't stand shrill noises, so I realise I'm less tolerant of this kind of thing than many people), which he was letting rip frequently and very very loudly. There was a bloke there who I presumed to be their dad, as he sometimes spoke to them and called them over, but they didn't pay any attention at all, and he didn't push it or try to moderate their behaviour.

I joined DD in the children's section, and the two boys were running in and out of that area (then across the library to mum at the desk again). They were fighting, very vociferously, over a bottled drink, a fair bit of which got spilled on the floor. Several books were also knocked onto the floor. A couple of other children were sitting on the covered seats/cushions, and were intimidated by them rolling around, shouting and fighting. I was feeling very Hmm and wondered why the staff didn't point out to the mum that this wasn't ok behaviour.

As we checked our books out, the toddler screamed very loudly right behind me. I said "God almighty" and turned round, and the mum was walking past me with all four children. She said "What?? He's only two". I said "They've been running around screaming and fighting for the last twenty minutes. This is a library". She said "I don't care" to which I replied "Clearly; if you cared about other people, you wouldn't let your kids run around screaming and fighting". The woman walked off to the children's section.

I thought about what had happened, and thought maybe I'm completely out of sync with what's acceptable in libraries these days. As I was leaving I went to the desk and said "I know libraries aren't the solemn, silent places of the seventies, and I'm really glad about that, but is that now acceptable behaviour for children in a library? Am I way off the mark on what is ok?". The librarian said that the woman was joining the library, and that she had four children who'd never been in the library before (one was a babe in pushchair, obviously), so they didn't say anything to her. She looked quite Hmm at me.

I can see her point, and am wondering whether I was BU to say what I did. But to me, wherever I was I wouldn't let my children run around fighting and emitting ear-splitting shrieks, let alone in a library. I know it's not a sacred sanctum, but a library is supposed to be someone where you can go for peace and quiet to enjoy books.

So AIBU?

OP posts:
CheerfulYank · 09/01/2011 04:48

I don't think YABU, OP. DS has been known to be out of control in the library. He gets a warning and if it doesn't stop, we leave. End of.

Granted, I only have one DS. However I used to be a carer and have brought up to 10 children to the library before, with dire warnings a discussion of proper behavior beforehand. :o

I definitely feel for the mother with the four, because we've all been there, right? But it sounds like she was making no attempt to control them and that's ridiculous IMO. Kids scream, throw fits, lose control in public all the time, but it only bothers me when the parents aren't at least trying to teach them any better.

PeeringIntoTheWintryVoid · 09/01/2011 09:45

Grin Grin at TyraG

Ladywolf · 09/01/2011 10:11

I have two little girls 1 and 4 and if i'm taking them some place like the library, i tend to let them have a bit of a run around in the park first to get rid of some of their exuberance. They still sometimes misbehave, but mostly they are learning what sort of behaviour is expected of them and what is not. If you never take you children to different places, how can they learn how to behave in different situations and environments.

Ladywolf · 09/01/2011 10:12

Lol at TyraG

bees474 · 09/01/2011 10:25

OP I think you were being unreasonable. I think you should have kept your judgement to yourself.

I have seen all sorts of behaviour in my local library. It's always busy and full of life. Sometimes children behave unpredictably, sometimes badly. Sometimes they pull books off the shelves, sometimes they run, sometimes they screech. It doesn't hurt anyone, the parents usually do their best and hooray for the parents who take their children to the library- many don't.

If I were you, would save my righteous ire and my 'God Almighty' comments for parents who can't be bothered to take their kids to the library, not parents who are trying their best to get them reading. I hope that she goes back to the library and hasn't been put off forever by your judgements on her.

dotnet · 09/01/2011 14:15

Kids who won't behave shouldn't be in libraries, and library staff SHOULD make it clear that if you come into a library, you must behave like a nerd or a baby nerd, or you are OUT. Giving a telling-off isn't the same as barring a child from a library for life; kids need to learn 'there's a time and a place' and where the boundaries lie. You did the right thing IMHO.

feralgirl · 09/01/2011 14:46

OP, YANBU to be annoyed, or to have commented. The kids' behaviour was unacceptable

However I am entirly sympathetic towards the mother in the your post; she was filling out forms and trying to control four kids, poor woman.

Ideally the your comments should have been directed at the father who was doing sweet FA. Fekkin useless bag of pish; why should the woman be made to feel guilty because she's failed to do everything? Surely the kids/ forms are just as much his responsibility as hers?

PrincessBoo · 09/01/2011 16:54

dotnet Library staff aren't allowed to tell people off for that sort of behaviour - they have to be seen to be 'promoting inclusion'. I think that if it was the lady's second time and the same sort of thing happened then maybe they could have a quiet word about wha sort of behvaiour is expected. But as I said, it's not actually allowed!

stretchmummy · 09/01/2011 17:59

Blimey, someone tell the librarians in Fleet that they're not allowed to tell children off. Mind you I was very glad when they did as it kept my two quiet for a good hour.

PrincessBoo · 09/01/2011 18:16

Maybe it varies from authority to authority stretchmummy but I am only quoting what my husband said to me when I was talking to him about this thread last night (he works in a library).

independiente · 09/01/2011 18:28

To those posters who feel that children should be allowed to express their, erm, liveliness regardless of immediate surroundings because, hey, they are just kids... At what point do children learn to modulate behaviour given different situations, thereby allowing them to become considerate adults? Does it just miraculously dawn on them at eighteen? I think not.
OP YANBU. Parenting is not about creating eternal children, it's about preparing your children for a world in which thinking about others as well as themselves will make them and their community happier.

Goblinchild · 09/01/2011 18:30

'At what point do children learn to modulate behaviour given different situations, thereby allowing them to become considerate adults?'

At school, if they haven't got it from home.
You can't teach effectively in a class with children running around and screaming.

independiente · 09/01/2011 18:36

You're right Goblinchild. Shouldn't be that way though.

sayjay · 09/01/2011 20:41

nappyaddict "sayjay With NT children do you think people should say anything to children about their behaviour or do you think they should have a word with the adult in charge?"

Personally, I think you should take it up with the adult unless they're in immediate danger or immediate danger of hurting someone.

"Would you be annoyed if someone that didn't know about his SN for instance said in a friendly voice to him "stop running sweetie or somebody might get hurt"?

Not annoyed, that sounds kind and they aren't to know. . . BUT then I would have to intervene because that comment may cause him to run for the exit, bang his head on the floor or sweep all the books off the shelf. I would be annoyed if the comment were along the lines of Boffin Mum's ( "I am an ex-teacher and I have been programmed to take unruly offspring in hand and lead them to the light ...I do find that saying things like, "You are letting your mother down, what do you think you are doing, making all this noise in a library?" )It's the "I-know-better-than-you-how-to-parent-YOUR-child" attitude. Not a clue what life is like for the other person. It stinks.

This is an aside really, as I know, OP, that you did take it up with out on the mother. It was a response to Boffin's post that she would have told the children off, but she's not alone in saying that.

FWIW I am extremely offended by blasphemy too. You may as well tell me and my child to F-off as say what you did. Seriously.

LeClaire · 09/01/2011 20:58

Charliesmommy...I fail to understand why your subjective opinion on disruptive behaviour is applicable to modern parenting. I disagree that children should be told there is a time and a place to behave (because you suggest that it is you who has this right)...children are not our possessions, and should be treated with respect. If a child has been brought up within a family that encourages self expression, even if it is in a church (why the forced reverence?)...then is it the child we should be looking at? Any issues you have with a child, should first be addressed with ourselves.

bupcakesandcunting · 09/01/2011 21:07

"How about we start a campaign? We'll call it "Yeah I had these kids, but I don't feel like fucking taking care of them so you can all jump up my ass while I let them do whatever the hell they damn well please".

All of this "it's harder to control 4 kids than one, you know nothing" nonsense is beginning to grate. How do teachers/playgroup leaders manage to control several children whilst performing other tasks? It's a cop out excuse. My dad has eleven siblings. My grandma managed very well with her brood (mainly because she ruled with an iron fist Grin. It's just easier to blame it on being difficult than actually taking your offspring in hand.

PrincessBoo · 09/01/2011 21:42

And as for all this 'you did the right thing teaching that woman how she should behave in public with her kids' etc etc - how do we know that the way that the OP chose to tackle what she saw as offensive behaviour was effective?

I can only speak for myself - talk to me as one adult to another and I'll listen - be confrontational and I'll come back on the same level. Transactional analysis.

Joolyjoolyjoo · 09/01/2011 21:47

LeClaire- "If a child has been brought up within a family that encourages self expression, even if it is in a church (why the forced reverence?)...then is it the child we should be looking at? Any issues you have with a child, should first be addressed with ourselves."

Are you then saying that the child is just a product of his or her parenting, an unfinished project, as it were?? I tend to think that children are their own little people and personalities. Yes, perhaps one set of adults (their parents) have taught them it is ok to behave in any way they want, but surely it's equally ok for another adult to explain that in this particular situation it's not great to behave like this?

Children gain experience and knowledge from all sorts of sources. They are shaped by all the experiences they have, not just by the rules their parents set out for them, surely?? Do you really think that only parents can have a positive influence on children?

whomovedmychocolate · 09/01/2011 23:17

YANBU - libraries are often frequented by people who go for the quiet. I know I used to and I know a lot of older people who are really freaked out by loud sudden noises.

My two are boisterous but know that if they run round or yell we leave immediately and they don't get to choose any books.

I would have sat on the carpet and started reading aloud to engage a few of them if it were me though - have done that in the past and the sheepish dad will often then turn up and spirit them away/stun them with chocolate.

juuule · 10/01/2011 09:42

Leclaire "I disagree that children should be told there is a time and a place to behave"

Just curious - how are children expected to learn how to behave appropriately in various situations if it's not explained to them?

I did the same as whomovedmychocolate "but know that if they run round or yell we leave immediately and they don't get to choose any books." and explain why they shouldn't run around or yell. They soon understand ime (some sooner than others).

swanandduck · 10/01/2011 09:49

Princess Boo

It was you who made the remark about God welcoming everyone. Why can I not respond to that????

swanandduck · 10/01/2011 09:54

{shock] at people who think 'at least she was bringing them into a library so doesn't really matter if they were tearing around, spilling drinks etc'

What about the people who were trying to study in the library (which is one of it's functions, not indoor playground for kids).

mixedmamameansbusiness · 10/01/2011 10:24

I think you were a little unreasonable to say what you did to her, which will just have made her feel bad. I generally have well behaved children but sometimes they do go nuts and embarrass me outside and I feel crap about it and soemtimes there just isnt much I can do than finish what I am doing (perhaps signing up at the library) then leave.

People should make an effort to control their children but sometimes it is just a bad day and I dont think it was nice for you to pass judgement and comment although I think you are reasonable for being annoyed that it happens IYSWIM.

I have been trying to use the library for study and generally they dont seem that quiet to me anyway.

biryani · 10/01/2011 11:21

If the woman wasn't able to handle the children and trust them to behave, she shouldn't have taken them to the library. She should have more respect for other people's right to peace and quiet, especially in a library, which is one of the few places of guaranteed sanctuary left to the public. YANBU.

PeeringIntoTheWintryVoid · 10/01/2011 12:27

Thanks for all your replies. Smile