to think that children shouldn't be screaming and running around in a library?

[PeeringIntoAFestiveVoid]

I have a feeling I'm going to get toasted to a perfect 'well done' shade of brown here....

I went to the library with DD today, and as we came in, there was a woman with a pushchair standing at the desk. As I was returning our books (not at the desk) and browsing, there were two children running around, screaming and shouting - the younger boy looked about three, the older boy five or so. They seemed to be with the mum at the desk, as she occasionally ssshhhed them (of which they took no notice at all). There was an older boy who looked to be six or seven, who joined in with the shouting and running from time to time, but wasn't causing the same chaos as the littler ones. The toddler had an utterly ear piercing shriek (I really can't stand shrill noises, so I realise I'm less tolerant of this kind of thing than many people), which he was letting rip frequently and very very loudly. There was a bloke there who I presumed to be their dad, as he sometimes spoke to them and called them over, but they didn't pay any attention at all, and he didn't push it or try to moderate their behaviour.

I joined DD in the children's section, and the two boys were running in and out of that area (then across the library to mum at the desk again). They were fighting, very vociferously, over a bottled drink, a fair bit of which got spilled on the floor. Several books were also knocked onto the floor. A couple of other children were sitting on the covered seats/cushions, and were intimidated by them rolling around, shouting and fighting. I was feeling very and wondered why the staff didn't point out to the mum that this wasn't ok behaviour.

As we checked our books out, the toddler screamed very loudly right behind me. I said "God almighty" and turned round, and the mum was walking past me with all four children. She said "What?? He's only two". I said "They've been running around screaming and fighting for the last twenty minutes. This is a library". She said "I don't care" to which I replied "Clearly; if you cared about other people, you wouldn't let your kids run around screaming and fighting". The woman walked off to the children's section.

I thought about what had happened, and thought maybe I'm completely out of sync with what's acceptable in libraries these days. As I was leaving I went to the desk and said "I know libraries aren't the solemn, silent places of the seventies, and I'm really glad about that, but is that now acceptable behaviour for children in a library? Am I way off the mark on what is ok?". The librarian said that the woman was joining the library, and that she had four children who'd never been in the library before (one was a babe in pushchair, obviously), so they didn't say anything to her. She looked quite at me.

I can see her point, and am wondering whether I was BU to say what I did. But to me, wherever I was I wouldn't let my children run around fighting and emitting ear-splitting shrieks, let alone in a library. I know it's not a sacred sanctum, but a library is supposed to be someone where you can go for peace and quiet to enjoy books.

So AIBU?

Yes I actually agree with the last two comments.... children will be children ...my god there are some teenagers who are even noisy more than a screaming wailing toddler I can tell you....I am a mother of five, when, u bring children in to a new environment to can only teach them then the dos n don't so god lighten up people n don't always judge from far.....u don't knw what the poor mother gas to deal with. Behind closed door.

TRyharder = Very well said! I agree with you totally.
If you tell your kids off in public your a bad parent, if you dont tell your kids off in public your a bad parent. Damned if you do, dammed if you don't.
Never judge someone until you have walked a mile in their shoes...

My point is, and has always been on this thread, that you can't make sweeping judgements on people based on observing their behaviour for 5 minutes.

We also only have half the story - we have no idea how she dealt with her children once she had left the desk and went towards the children's area where she was able to concentrate on what her children were doing while not filling in a form.

Very well said Sims.

Some parents seem to think they can just pitch up anywhere with their kids and it immediately turns into kiddy zone and everyone else can just sod off.

No one on here is objecting to children making a little bit of noise or being a bit excited to be in the library with other kids, they are objecting to kids being allowed shout and roar and scream and spill drinks, completely unchecked by either parent.

I struggle enough with just 1 ds which is why he is just 1 so far. when i see familys of 2 or more running riot i truely sympathise but also am thankful i decided to leave a big age gap before embarking on no 2.

I drive to a library a bit further away because it has a fab 2 storey building with the whole downstairs just for children.

How people know that 'it was first time this woman had taken her dcs to a library'? She had a bad day fgs.

I agree with TyraG andbupcake.
It was said that other countries are more child friendly. They are usually more polite and well behaved.
Children come into the world not knowing what they can or cannot do and need a lot of loving helpful discipline to help themlearn what is acceptable behaviour, They all have their "moments" (some as toddlers. some as teenagers). I stress Quiet and Loving discipline.
I was alwaya glad if someone reproved my children. It sortof backed me up.

If she wasn't used to being in a library why was the default position 'let the kids run wild until I suss out the norm here'. Surely it should be the other way around?

Children need to learn what is acceptable behaviour in different places. They should be taught that a library is a place to be reasonably still and quiet, out of consideration for other people. I'm not advocating complete silence, just a bit of hush.
I also have a real issue with the way some people seem to think it is acceptable for their children to behave in church. Children need to learn as early as is practical that it is not all about THEM.

"How people know that 'it was first time this woman had taken her dcs to a library'? She had a bad day fgs."

How do you know she was having a bad day, Laquitar? The children's behaviour didn't seem to surprise her or unduly stress her out. You're supposing just as much that she was having a bad day, as the people who are supposing she'd never taken the children to a library before.

"OP: you give her two choices: crawl in a hole with her grubby children and wait to die, or not to care about the broad spectrum nastiness directed at her little family, and just try to do the best she can."

Sylvanian what an absurdly melodramatic remark. And I wouldn't term having four children a 'little' family.

Your posts have been just as judgemental towards me as you are accusing me of being towards this woman.
In addition, you clearly didn't even read my posts properly; just to clarify for you...
I wasn't queueing,
They weren't leaving (so the situation wasn't 'self resolving')
'Audible and visually distracting' wouldn't have been a problem. Ear-splitting shrieking was. Running full tilt and fighting with a drink was, and the knocking to the floor of books was.
My remark wasn't made loudly, or directed at the toddler. it was made in a quiet to normal tone.

"what even she admits was an inappropriate interjection." Actually I didn't 'admit' that it was an inappropriate interjection; I said that in retrospect, I wish that I had stepped in earlier to engage directly with the children, and been more helpful to someone who may have been struggling. However, as others have pointed out (thank you all ), I was under no social obligation to step in and try to manage someone else's out of control kids, and actually that course of action may have been no more appropriate than me telling her directly that her children's behaviour was inappropriate for a library. I think that under the circumstances, what I did say was appropriate. I could have put it more gently, but that's still my choice.

"The language used is offensive to a broad base of religious affiliations" Oh do me a fucking favour!

"You never never voice personal judgements on people you don't know." Yet you seem to be perfectly happy to do so; maybe you should take your own advice on how to communicate effectively, Sylvanian?

Thanks to everyone for their replies - they gave me lots of food for thought.

Bupcakes I think I might be a bit in love with you now.

Churches are a whole different ball game, abd a whole new thread. Those that welcome families and children are the ones that thrive.

God loves and accepts everyone, right stretchmummy?

PeeringIntoAWintryVoid - agreed!

no i am glad you did comment. I remember once the librarian commented on my 3 being a bit loud and i think i did get a bit defensive but made sure they quitened down. It can be difficult but children do need to behave.

I think we have a society where no one will say anything and we put up with unacceptable behaviour so well done.

alemci : Did she say "your child is a bit loud" or did she say "God almighty.... you clearly don't care about other people letting her behave that way". You see the nuance?

OP, 'God' and 'Jesus' used as swearing get my back right up. Not sure why my feelings (as a member of the public) on this do not deserve to be taken seriously.

Personal attacks don't feel nice, sitting at home having a bit of fun on an anonymous Internet forum. How would they feel at the end of a frustrating day, in a place where you are out of your comfort zone, in front of and directed at your family?

Your behaviour was more anti-social than hers: verbal attack versus failing to stop little children causing a nuisance. I'm not saying she was in the right. She was weak and showed poor judgement. But you dealt with it wrong.

Sylvanian

Why should we all pussy foot around self centred people who think they, and their family, can behave any way they want in a public space?

Princess Boo: 'God loves and accepts everyone'. How does this excuse parents letting their young children disrespect a religious ceremony and the people around them in a Church?

She was weak? Seriously?

She was completely oblivious. All she had to do was turn to them and ask them to quiet down/stop running, put the drink away/put the books back. Instead she did...um....what was it...oh yeah, nothing.

It's not pussy footing to use an approach which will encourage behaviour change rather than attacking the person . It's manners.

Well I'm sorry but I don't have time to slowly encourage behaviour change in every selfish stranger who ruins my meal in a restaurant, or my peace and quiet in a Church, because they aren't bothered about controlling their children. Surely, it they see that people are annoyed and pissed off with them, they should realise that their behaviour is unnacceptable?

Manners huh? I'm guessing if this woman had taught her kids manners they wouldn't have been acting the way they did. Things that make you go hmmm.......

Tyra, are you speaking about the woman in the OP, or other inconsiderate parents who have irritated you recently?

" with a pushchair "control attempt 1(succeed)
" she occasionally ssshhhed them (of which they took no notice at all)." control attempt 2(fail)
"There was an older boy who wasn't causing the same chaos as the littler ones." control attempt 3 (succeed)
"The toddler had an utterly ear piercing shriek" (gaffer tape?)
" There was a bloke who.. sometimes spoke to them and called them over," control attempt 4 - distraction
" he didn't push it or try to moderate their behaviour." control attempt 5 - reasoning can sometimes get better results than heavy handed intervention.

Swan: you don't have time to speak to strangers in a civil way - the lady in library does not have time to stop her children making a nuisance in the library - touché.

Sylvanian

Where did I say I don't have time to speak to strangers in a civil way. I said I don't have time to encourage behaviour change in every selfish adult I meet.
Your touche point seems to ignore the fact that parents have responsibility to control their children, it is not the responsibility of other people. If you don't have time to control your children, you shouldn't have them.

I didn't say you should control her children, or change the behaviour of every selfish person you meet.

There are three options to deal with antisocial behaviour:

1. Ignore
2. Speak with the people involved in a civilised way
3. Involve someone in authority

There is just no place for verbal attacks.

YABU I have 5 Dc and some were fine in places like libraries but DS runs riot. I usually avoid it but sometimes just hope people will let him off for being a lively toddler. Some people DO have toddlers that are more rowdy than others or maybe the child has special needs. Cut her some slack and just be grateful that your kids aren't doing it, you never know one day someone may have the last laugh at you if your DC end up doing something wrong, you never know...

I knew a lady with a severely disabled (adult) son who drew lots of strength from her faith. She spoke about how dispiriting it was to get dirty looks if her son shouted out in church.

All judgement put aside: we want to stop our potentially troubled, struggling young people from accessing spiritual faith and the benefits of escaping into reading? Seriously? While they are pre-schoolers that you can lift with one hand?

I go to a pretty 'high' church. Looong, serious services. No sunday school. You build the kids up to it. Can't guarantee they'll be trouble free, but slowly they pick it up. I have had one negative comment (year and a half ago), from a gentleman who asked me to 'control my child' to stop her walking in a zig zag pattern along the pattern of the tiled floor. I see him: I just want to leave immediately - I feel he dislikes us for existing and for being too many. Also get very many positive comments about how nice it is to see children 'growing up within the community', and how 'it always sounds worst to the mother'. At communion time, someone always seems to volunteer to hold a little hand up to the altar. And I refuse to accept that if I "cannot control my children at the altar I shouldn't have had them' .

My middle Ds had very long, emotionally high strung terrible twos and threes. He is now much better at controlling himself. However, of all my children, I feel he is the one for whom I need to develop outlets for. I want him to be emotional, imaginative and spiritual rather than emotional, alienated and violent. I would have though society wanted much the same.