to think that children shouldn't be screaming and running around in a library?

[PeeringIntoAFestiveVoid]

I have a feeling I'm going to get toasted to a perfect 'well done' shade of brown here....

I went to the library with DD today, and as we came in, there was a woman with a pushchair standing at the desk. As I was returning our books (not at the desk) and browsing, there were two children running around, screaming and shouting - the younger boy looked about three, the older boy five or so. They seemed to be with the mum at the desk, as she occasionally ssshhhed them (of which they took no notice at all). There was an older boy who looked to be six or seven, who joined in with the shouting and running from time to time, but wasn't causing the same chaos as the littler ones. The toddler had an utterly ear piercing shriek (I really can't stand shrill noises, so I realise I'm less tolerant of this kind of thing than many people), which he was letting rip frequently and very very loudly. There was a bloke there who I presumed to be their dad, as he sometimes spoke to them and called them over, but they didn't pay any attention at all, and he didn't push it or try to moderate their behaviour.

I joined DD in the children's section, and the two boys were running in and out of that area (then across the library to mum at the desk again). They were fighting, very vociferously, over a bottled drink, a fair bit of which got spilled on the floor. Several books were also knocked onto the floor. A couple of other children were sitting on the covered seats/cushions, and were intimidated by them rolling around, shouting and fighting. I was feeling very and wondered why the staff didn't point out to the mum that this wasn't ok behaviour.

As we checked our books out, the toddler screamed very loudly right behind me. I said "God almighty" and turned round, and the mum was walking past me with all four children. She said "What?? He's only two". I said "They've been running around screaming and fighting for the last twenty minutes. This is a library". She said "I don't care" to which I replied "Clearly; if you cared about other people, you wouldn't let your kids run around screaming and fighting". The woman walked off to the children's section.

I thought about what had happened, and thought maybe I'm completely out of sync with what's acceptable in libraries these days. As I was leaving I went to the desk and said "I know libraries aren't the solemn, silent places of the seventies, and I'm really glad about that, but is that now acceptable behaviour for children in a library? Am I way off the mark on what is ok?". The librarian said that the woman was joining the library, and that she had four children who'd never been in the library before (one was a babe in pushchair, obviously), so they didn't say anything to her. She looked quite at me.

I can see her point, and am wondering whether I was BU to say what I did. But to me, wherever I was I wouldn't let my children run around fighting and emitting ear-splitting shrieks, let alone in a library. I know it's not a sacred sanctum, but a library is supposed to be someone where you can go for peace and quiet to enjoy books.

So AIBU?

sylvanian perhaps the Toddler took her by surprise and she let out this exclamation in the heat of the moment.

we are all human.

OOH i do take your point. i don't like people taking Gods name in vain either and i hate it when people say OMG or JC constantly.

Well Sylvanian if all those "attempts" didn't work then she should have taken her kids and left. Manners...yup, yup, yup.

She did! The OP described the incident occurring as the woman was walking past her with all her children. sounds to me like they were getting ready to go.

No dear, what she did was finish her shit before she left while her kids ran wild for 20 MINUTES.

Her 'shit' being sorting out a library card for her older, well behaved DS. What a bitch.

You know what you're right. I mean, who the hell goes to a library and expects it to be quiet. Goddamn assholes.

Let's just let everyone do as they please and fuck anyone who doesn't like it.

Libraries work hard at attracting children from what I will euphemistically call 'less bookish' families.You, op with your great size 9 s, might have stopped them coming again
way to go!

Can I just say Libraries are not WACKY WHAREHOUSES!

I haven't read all the replies, but I don't think the op is BU.

I have 3 children (7,5 and 3) and we go to the library every 4wks. My children are often noisy, I admit, but I try to get them to keep it down to a dull roar in the library. I can leave them in the children's section where they will sit and draw/ colour in/ read, while I choose my own books. If I hear them getting noisy, I am over like a shot to remind them forcibly to be quiet. If I caught them running around and fighting as the OP describes I would be horrified and annoyed, and they would soon know that.

I definitely do NOT have perfect children. Usually a trip to the library involves at least one reprimand for someone (usually for shouting/ squabbling). But despite the tellings-off they still love going to the library. This idea that children will only enjoy an experience if they are allowed to behave however they like is ludicrous- they will get more from the experience, surely, if they can behave long enough to engage with the resources that are at their disposal there??

Our librarian seems to really like my children (although maybe I'm deluded ). She always directs us towards upcoming activities, asks them about the books they've checked out and provides pictures to colour etc. I'd like to think that even though they can be rowdy, she appreciates the fact that I at least react to their behaviour. I don't expect libraries nowadays to be quiet, but, as the children's section adjoins the adult section at our library I try to have some respect for other people- why should some wee old dear, whose trip to the library is the highlight of her week, have to be deafened/ potentially knocked over by marauding children?

But I am probably a fuddy duddy

I kinda see both sides of this. On the one hand it is understandable that people will want libraries to be quiet places where they can enjoy books undisturbed. On the other hand, the mother had a lot on her hands. She was trying to sort out library membership while keeping an eye on four kids and doesn't seem to have been receiving much, if any, support for her partner. She may well be feeling completely worn down if they are naturally rowdy kids. My two boys are pretty high energy and I can't help thinking that if I had four I'd struggle at times. Maybe she was just having a bad day.

SylvanianFamily: "There is just no place for verbal attacks"

Umm, pot, kettle....?

Apart from MN

Kids should be shown how to behave in certain places I.e. The library. If they are noisy & disruptive they should leave. Maybe Librarys could have a kids room rather than a corner. I for one would feel more comfortable taking my 3 yr old!

sayjay With NT children do you think people should say anything to children about their behaviour or do you think they should have a word with the adult in charge?

Would you be annoyed if someone that didn't know about his SN for instance said in a friendly voice to him "stop running sweetie or somebody might get hurt"?

"She did! The OP described the incident occurring as the woman was walking past her with all her children. sounds to me like they were getting ready to go."
Again, Sylvanian, I wish you'd read my posts properly....

I said in my OP "She said "I don't care" to which I replied "Clearly; if you cared about other people, you wouldn't let your kids run around screaming and fighting". The woman walked off to the children's section."

HelenBa said "SylvanianFamily: "There is just no place for verbal attacks"
Umm, pot, kettle....?" Thank you Helenba!

Sylvanian replied "Apart from MN "

Whereas personally, I try to treat people on MN exactly the same as I would treat them face to face, as I know that it is a fellow human on the other end of the internet connection.

"Can I just say Libraries are not WACKY WHAREHOUSES!"

I think some people disagree....

Joolyjoolyjoo I don't think you're a fuddy duddy at all. As I said - it wasn't the children I was at, it was the absence of any firm measures to control them. If a child is being rowdy and someone is trying to moderate their behaviour, I have plenty of sympathy.

BTW someone upthread referred to me having a "demure" DD. My DD couldn't be much further from 'demure' - she is loud, boisterous and spirited. I'm probably tougher with her than a lot of people would condone, and I wouldn't dream of letting her inconvenience others in a public space.

A while back, the library rang me to say that one of DD's books had been returned 'chewed', and that I'd have to pay for them. After much investigation we decided the dog/rabbit was to blame (they were delicately but noticeably nibbled at the corners), then at the eleventh hour I extracted a confession (only US approved measures of torture were used...) that she'd been nibbling the page corners.

I marched her into the library under instruction to give a full confession and apology for the defacement of the books, and said she'd have to pay me back for the price of the books I'd paid. The (same two) librarians stood throughout her apology like this and only cracked a sympathetic smile as we were about to leave. My point being - these are not the most tolerant and child friendly librarians. Maybe if she'd run around screaming and chewed/thrown/covered in fizzy drink the books on site, they'd have been more tolerant?

Swanandduck If you have an AIBU related to the misbehaviour of a child in your church then by all means start one and I will add my judgement of that particular situation as I see fit.

Sylvanianfamily I like your attitude to life very very much.

OP, you're a real person. You asked if you were being unreasonable. I have explained, as best I can, at some length, the ways in which I think you could have handled the situation more kindly and constructively.

It is not analogous with passing severe and humiliating unsolicited personal comment in RL, on someone who at that point in time was carrying a heavier load than you.

Walking towards the childrens section with all her kids sounds like she had finally gained control of her children, was no longer tied up with paperwork and hence was going to grab the books and leave.

Do you not feel guilty for vandalising this woman's day and attempt to start something good for her family? Do you see how you also displayed anti-social behaviour?

Your (deliberate) actions would have caused far more distress to her than her (negligent, under the unusual pressure of 20 minutes of paperwork, and a new environment) actions caused you.

Sylvanian "Do you not feel guilty for vandalising this woman's day and attempt to start something good for her family? Do you see how you also displayed anti-social behaviour?"

Hmmm...let me think...
No,
and No.

What were you saying earlier about (paraphrasing) backing people into a corner and not giving them a way to retreat from their position with dignity?

Given the choice, I would have done things differently (my choice), but given your absurdly sentimental, sanctimonious, judgemental comments, then I stand by everything I said, in the way that I said it, as being utterly within my rights to comment on someone else's anti-social behaviour.

When it comes down to it, why should I automatically excuse antisocial behaviour on the grounds that the perpetrators must be socially disadvantaged and in need of the suspension of our normal behavioural morals and expectations of behaviour?

I would have just been smug and happy that my dd is so well behaved (and also relieved I don't have 4 kids - sounds terrifying to me, the fact they were all dressed and out of the house was quite an achievement to me as I often struggle with one refusing to put her coat on!).

As a mum of 5, I have certainly had days like this at the library and would not have appreciated someone saying, 'God almighty' to me. When you are outnumbered, you don't have as much control as a mum of 1 or 2 children, and if you are busy registering and filling in forms, you therefore cannot enact total control over every child, particularly if they are just 2 or 3. Plus you have no idea what the background is of the children. My no.2 is hard of hearing, so speaks very loud and my no.4 has aspergers so may not always come across as completely 'normal'. Should I therefore bar myself into the house and never leave it for fear of upsetting someone? I do like to take my children to the library and borrow books. I try to be quick. There are times when my children behave perfectly and there are times when they are absolutely awful. I can't really predict eiether - I just try to get in, get the books and get out, which is presumably what this Mum did. At least she didn't sit in a corner and breastfeed whilst the toddler wet himself on the floor...hey, I've done that once! Maybe we all need to make a few excuses for each other and be more friendly. What a great world it would be if we could step forward and talk to the kids in a friendly manner about what a library is and maybe show them a few books instead of muttering, 'God Almighty' at them.

You're right we should just make excuses for everyone so that no one has to take responsibility for anything, especially not the children they've chosen to bring into the world.

How about we start a campaign? We'll call it "Yeah I had these kids, but I don't feel like fucking taking care of them so you can all jump up my ass while I let them do whatever the hell they damn well please".

Who's on board?