to think that children shouldn't be screaming and running around in a library?

[PeeringIntoAFestiveVoid]

I have a feeling I'm going to get toasted to a perfect 'well done' shade of brown here....

I went to the library with DD today, and as we came in, there was a woman with a pushchair standing at the desk. As I was returning our books (not at the desk) and browsing, there were two children running around, screaming and shouting - the younger boy looked about three, the older boy five or so. They seemed to be with the mum at the desk, as she occasionally ssshhhed them (of which they took no notice at all). There was an older boy who looked to be six or seven, who joined in with the shouting and running from time to time, but wasn't causing the same chaos as the littler ones. The toddler had an utterly ear piercing shriek (I really can't stand shrill noises, so I realise I'm less tolerant of this kind of thing than many people), which he was letting rip frequently and very very loudly. There was a bloke there who I presumed to be their dad, as he sometimes spoke to them and called them over, but they didn't pay any attention at all, and he didn't push it or try to moderate their behaviour.

I joined DD in the children's section, and the two boys were running in and out of that area (then across the library to mum at the desk again). They were fighting, very vociferously, over a bottled drink, a fair bit of which got spilled on the floor. Several books were also knocked onto the floor. A couple of other children were sitting on the covered seats/cushions, and were intimidated by them rolling around, shouting and fighting. I was feeling very and wondered why the staff didn't point out to the mum that this wasn't ok behaviour.

As we checked our books out, the toddler screamed very loudly right behind me. I said "God almighty" and turned round, and the mum was walking past me with all four children. She said "What?? He's only two". I said "They've been running around screaming and fighting for the last twenty minutes. This is a library". She said "I don't care" to which I replied "Clearly; if you cared about other people, you wouldn't let your kids run around screaming and fighting". The woman walked off to the children's section.

I thought about what had happened, and thought maybe I'm completely out of sync with what's acceptable in libraries these days. As I was leaving I went to the desk and said "I know libraries aren't the solemn, silent places of the seventies, and I'm really glad about that, but is that now acceptable behaviour for children in a library? Am I way off the mark on what is ok?". The librarian said that the woman was joining the library, and that she had four children who'd never been in the library before (one was a babe in pushchair, obviously), so they didn't say anything to her. She looked quite at me.

I can see her point, and am wondering whether I was BU to say what I did. But to me, wherever I was I wouldn't let my children run around fighting and emitting ear-splitting shrieks, let alone in a library. I know it's not a sacred sanctum, but a library is supposed to be someone where you can go for peace and quiet to enjoy books.

So AIBU?

Of course she failed to control herself. It sounds like transcript of a beery bloke trying to start a bar fight.

Fill in the gaps below with non-library words and read it to yourself in a deep male voice, and tell me that wouldn't lead to blows in a different context.

I said "God almighty" and turned round,
the was walking past me. "What?? He's only ".
I said "They've been screaming and fighting for the last twenty minutes. This is a **".
He said "I don't care" to which I replied "Clearly; if you cared about other people, you wouldn't **".

At least the stranger was trying . Help her eldest with his homework, expose them to some culture, go out somewhere warm and cheap because their heating is on the blink and they can't afford to fix it - I wouldn't know. The OP? Cruisin' and bitchin'.

So, someone's kids were shouting and fighting in the library, mother did nothing, 2 year old started screaming and, if anyone comments, they are 'not controlling themselves in a public space' and 'behaving as if they're tyring to start a bar fight'.

Blimey.

Compo Sorry, but I don't think you can compare a Library Assistant to a Shop Assistant. I have done both and while there are some similarities (helping people find what their looking for, recommending books etc) that is where it's similarities end.

It's closer to social/community work. The OAP's who come in so they can talk to someone. The homeless looking for a warm place to sit. Adults with SN, these are all people who use the library on a very regular basis and keep the visitor numbers up.

Incidently my library does also employ trained librarians,the main difference in job description is what goes on behind the scenes. On the Enquiry Desks you may get a librarian or a library assistant and we are all perfectly capable of answering the same queries.

This thread is interesting, isn't it. As a result of reading it, I am now planning to gather my brood around me and brave the sneers and taunts of my local library users and actually go and get some books out pay off my fines.

Sorry Compo I agree with you and put the wrong name on my post it should have been to a1

ignore my last post, I did address my reply to the right poster, i'm going to blame the pregnancy brain and go to bed now.

It wasn't me who said a Library Assistant is like a shop assistant. I said a Library Assistant is not the same as a shop assistant. I agree with your post Liv77

I had the same thing at the panto - I'd told dd, 2years 10months, that in a theatre you have to sit in your chair and be very quiet - 2 kids in front were running up the ailse (4 adults with them) and the stewards had to ask the adults to get them to sit down. In the interval dd said very loudly "Mummy, those children were very naughty to run around. You have to sit still in a theatre!" Parents in front heard but I was very proud as kids in front were much older!

There are ways and means of dealing with these situations.

You don't start with an interjection, you start with a smile, eye contact and an "excuse me"

You don't criticise the children, you can comment on your inconvenience: " could you be careful please, my Dd is a bit scared".

You look for a confrontation free resolution. For example, engage the kid nearest to your Dd in age - say by reading a book, inviting the other kids to join you, and modelling good behaviour. Wait for an opportunity to couch what you say as concern for the kids "excuse me, I think your son has got in a bit of bother, he looks a bit worried".

You intervene early and lightly - not abusively as people leave.

You never never voice personal judgements on people you don't know. "clearly you don't care about other people" is way below the belt. Focus should be on the behaviour you want changing, not character assassination.

Finally, you give people a way out with dignity. The stranger can't rewind time. She won't enter into a slanging match about whether her kids are feral. She's already never returning to this place. She is humiliated in front of her family. That is exactly how fights break out.

Well done, OP, for the great social skills modelled to your OP.

sorry Liv. Just seen ignore my last post. Need to go to sleep as well.

Sorry Sylvania but if someone screams in my ear I usually just REACT.

Yes a1b2 apologies it was the pregnancy brain at work. I thought I had got your's and Compo's 2 posts mixed in my head so I posted my 2nd post, then realised I hadn't so I posted the 3rd.

Best hope I'm not to busy on my Enquiry Desk tomorrow

My mum worked in kitchens. She drummed into me that I must never shout out, even if I burn myself or cut myself. The point being that it is not constructive: you need first aid, ask for first aid. Shouting out can in itself cause another accident, say if someone was chopping fast, or carrying boiling water,

It is a self control that was taught to me by my mother, and I will teach to my children.

We might note that lack of impulse control is the strongest common characteristic among juvenile criminals. That, and horse-play with your brothers in public libraries, of course.

I'm a mum of 3 and until recently I have to say I haven't been been back to a library for this exact reason. I have now joined but that first visit was horrible. I was trying to work it all out, they were excited to be somewhere new, 2 other small children were playing peek a boo, I was worried about keeping them quiet. It was clearly going to be a trip or 2 for me to get them to understand how they needed to behave. The 20 month old has put paid to a library visit for now with his noise levels.

I hope she takes her kids back. I wish I had all the skills the teachers do to get the best behaviour out of my kids. I try but I find it hard when I have all three on my own but I don't think I do too bad.

I'm wondering if the "I don't care" was true or just a defence.

i like your posts sylvanianfamily

i am firmly in the camp that children should be taught how to behave with consideration to others in public places from the earliest age. ime wherever there are children behaving badly there are parents closeby doing little about it or else making lots of ineffectual noise themselves

Nappyaddict: " Would you be annoyed if someone spoke to him to tell him to stop doing something but in a nice chirpy way or do you not mind because people wouldn't necessarily know of his SN but just ask them not to and explain why?

Does DS get distressed if people just say hello to him, ask him his name/age etc?"

No, I don't expect people to know he has a SN, and yes he would get distressed if a stranger spoke to him in a friendly way to ask his name etc. This puzzles people so they would usually look to me and I say something along the lines of " Don't talk to him please, he doesn't like to be spoken to" (with what I hope is a friendly tone). Avoiding and dealing with those well-meant encounters is stressful enough without someone who hasn't a clue tackling his behaviour with him

He does rush up and down in our library as he thinks the flooring looks like rail tracks (train obsessed) and if it were disturbing someone I would hope they spoke with me. We are regulars and the library staff are great with him.

I know that's my situation and not common, but it's not unusual either.

Sylvanianfamily - you say what I feel, more eloquently - thank you ::)

I don't think anybody on this thread has said that they think it's ok for kids to run around screaming in a library narkypuffin but what most people who think the OP is BU are saying that at times, kids misbehave, and being all bitchy about it doesn't help anyone.

YABU - The parents here seem hopeless. This is the first time they have taken a school age child to the library after all.

However, if the parents are put off visiting the library again by OP making unsolicited comments on their parenting who will miss out? Their children of course. And they will never get the chance to develop a love of books and reading and that would be a shame.

I think the librarian's softly, softly approach was by far the best one for the young children and their futures.

Thanks Liv. You explained why Library Assistants are not the same as shop assistants much more fully and better than me.

OK, here is my disclaimer: I don't have kids so if/when I do I could find them really difficult and hide in a corner while they run amok! But: I am a teacher, and have taught a class of 26 Nursery children with just one teaching assistant, and for most story times, phonics sessions, etc, it was me controlling them on my own. So I hope it won't be felt I have no experience and don't know what I'm talking about!

My opinion is that parents don't have high enough expectations of their children's behaviour. I love children, but find myself cringing at their behaviour quite a bit, because of things that they do which would not be tolerated by their teachers. Before I taught Nursery I taught Year 1. Once a month we went to a church service (Catholic school), for a half an hour service. All of the children, from the just turned 4 year olds to the 11 year olds, were expected to sit still and quietly from the moment they sat down until the moment we got up to go back to school. Of course they got up to sing hymns etc, but when the Priest was talking they sat and daydreamed listened. They all did it. I am actually Anglican, and at my church the children go to Sunday School for most of the service, then come back in time for Communion. They come running up the aisle, loudly talking, some pushing each other, and sit in a group at the front of the church. At Communion they barge past people to get back to their seats, where they are given colouring sheets for the last 10 minutes of the service, or the older ones usually slouch in the pew playing on their DSes. They don't normally bother standing up for the hymn, often chat while the Vicar gives out notices, then go running back up the aisle, pushing past people as soon as the service is over. It really makes me cross, because these children could easily behave appropriately in church, but noone expects them to so they don't. Now I'm all for making church enjoyable for children, but they go to the Sunday School, which I know is fun activities not just sitting listening, so I don't think it's too much to expect them to behave for the last 10 minutes of the service!

I see this kind of thing everywhere. People just don't seem to expect their kids to behave anymore! I was once helping at a friend's son's birthday party, where the children were watching an entertainer for half an hour. Halfway through 3 of the children got up and started chasing each other around the hall, shrieking loudly. I heard one of their parents (who were at the party, which meant I couldn't very well tell the kids off) say "Awww bless, they were getting a bit bored." I don't care. They were 6, and I knew for a fact had all been to school since nursery, so would have been used, by then, to sitting still and watching/listening. If the entertainer had visited their school there is no way they would have got up and started running around in front of their teachers! But they knew they could do it in front of their parents. Later, when there were party games, this little group plus a couple more wouldn't join in, and went to play in the corridor where they ran up and down, screaming and shouting. As no parent made a move, I went out there, and told them in my stern teacher voice, "David has invited you to his party so you need to go and join in with the games or go and sit quietly with your mums and dads." They all went back in, played the games, and had a good time. But why do some parents not think to monitor and rectify their children's behaviour?

Do they not have libraries in the schools here? We had a library both in the grade school K-8 and (obviously) in the high school 9-12. We learned from an early age what behaviour was and was not appropriate in a library.

I have two children and they are a handful (which is one reason why we're not having anymore) but I keep them in line as best I can, which doesn't mean that I carry on with what I'm doing if they are out of control. They are told beforehand what kind of behaviour is expected for the place we're going (movies, restaurant, etc). If they get a bit crazy we remind them, if they can't behave we leave. If this means we have to take our food to go, that's what we do. No one else should have to suffer because our kids are out of sorts.

It is the parent's job to teach their children that different places require different behaviour. No one expects DCs to get it right all the time, but they do expect the parent to make the effort and keep making the effort. It would be a good idea to take them to the park first to let off steam and say 'now we are going to have to be quiet while we choose books'.Or say that they will get a run around afterwards.
It makes life so much easier for the child.

YANBU I think children should be expected to behave in a library, especially the older ones.

I have recently had my neice and nephew staying and the behaviour was disgraceful. The worst bit being they were not told it was unacceptable so have no chance of improving it.

Sims2fan:

1. the school age child in the OP was behaving appropriately.
2. the children in your church don't know how to behave appropriately because they are taken out most of the time. They are taken out most of the time because the parents are afraid of unpleasantness if their toddler so much as squawks. Ergo, the kids are estranged from the body of the church experience, and instead do colouring in a separate room.

a group of school children the same age is much easier to keep quiet than mixed age sibling preschoolers. It is the balance between verbal understanding and emotional volatility.

Tbh the mean-spirited judginess in this thread is precisely why people like the stranger in the OP are pushed I to a position of "I don't care". I really think she was given no chance by the OP. She clearly has too many children, by a vague father, is not taking them to library young enough/is taking them to the library too young, is not taking her youngest out of the room quick enough/ is not giving her elder ones a fair chance to look at books, is frustrating her youngest by keeping him strapped in a push chair/ is not controlling her next youngest by not strapping him in the pushchair.

OP: you give her two choices: crawl in a hole with her grubby children and wait to die, or not to care about the broad spectrum nastiness directed at her little family, and just try to do the best she can.

Sims2fan: from my observation, children are generally much better behaved at school than at home in the same way that I am very "nice" at work but horrible at home..