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young, close relative has become an "escort" WWYD?

882 replies

notreallymehere · 06/01/2011 16:22

20 something low closeish relative has become an escort. She has been thinking about it for a while, tried it in London, stopped but now has gone back to it in her home town. She is with what appears to be reputable agency and seems to be making quite a lot of money. Lots of reviews now appearing on her webpage etc. She appears fully happy with her choice - she had a job before (working in a coffee bar) but says that the money is better with this (she has previously worked as a lap dancer). My question is what do I tell my friends/acquaintances if they ask about her. I've discussed this with some people when she first started in London and the reaction was very aggressive "well you should have stopped her" etc etc. (hence name change) Fact is that she is an adult and this is her choice and I cannot see how I can stop her - she is making a far bit of money at this and is very financially motivated. However she is part of the family and it is difficult to avoid the questions but many people are very judgemental (of me for somehow "allowing" this to happen).

OP posts:
AlienZombieMum · 09/01/2011 18:19

I take as much pride in my work as a hooker as I did in paid employment for someone else

So did I most of the time. I was registered self-employed, filled out tax returns etc.

Although I'm sure Dittany will be along to tell me I did not ever , could not ever take pride in it and that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Xolo · 09/01/2011 18:19

Too nuanced? Can't be a great lawyer. YOU fuck them. THEY don't fuck you. Subtext - you fuck them over.

Men fuck women - having the penis in the equation - IYSWIM.

blueshoes · 09/01/2011 18:19

MargaretGrace: "Are we really that eager to believe the happy hooker myth."

You are the one using the words 'happy hooker myth' to tar SNB's views. Nothing in what SNB said suggests this at all, except that this is an informed choice she made.

You are being unduly hostile to her choice.

MargaretGraceBondfield · 09/01/2011 18:20

What does pride in your work actually mean when you're a hooker?

blueshoes · 09/01/2011 18:20

Xolo, lawyers are great at spotting people who are trying to split hairs in logic and language ... as you were

Xolo · 09/01/2011 18:22

Your post makes no sense to me.

AlienZombieMum · 09/01/2011 18:22

Margaret what an absolutely ridiculous thing to say! I am here in an attempt to show people another side to the story that criminalising prostitution will make it go away. I think challenging laws which are harmful to the women who actually work in prostitution is reason enough.

I absolutely do NOT need to seek your or anyone else's approval. Do you need to seek approval from having worked at your previous job?

blueshoes · 09/01/2011 18:23

Xolo, not surprised at all

Xolo · 09/01/2011 18:26

No - you're just another lawyer who thinks the only other people with any intelligence are lawyers. You're embarrassing.

blueshoes · 09/01/2011 18:26

MargaretGrace, if AZM and SNB were keen to seek approval, they would have realised long ago it is a losing battle to pry even a crack open in minds so closed. I believe their motivations to be different.

In any case, it is interesting to hear different views. I don't tend to agree with views just because they are rammed down my throat.

blueshoes · 09/01/2011 18:27

Xolo, your imagination runs away with you. But on this thread, it is not unusual.

AlienZombieMum · 09/01/2011 18:34

So now people here would rather rely upon the experience of one woman about a whole profession above the statistics and research that is out there? Are we really that eager to believe the happy hooker myth

But the non-coerced or forced fully by choice Sex Worker is NOT a myth. I wasn't talking about just one or two women posting on here. I was talking about 1000s of female (and a few male) prostitutes I have met during my time in the industry, and some I still know now. Whilst people like you are not willing to actually listen to the views expressed by people who have actually been there, and dismiss them constantly then there will probably be no change brought about.

I'm not perpetrating any happy hooker myth, I have actually explained a lot of the downsides.

I have as much right as you to express an opinion and belief on here, I am a mother of 2 so mumsnet is rather apt. I also have a right to not be told what I think and feel and have my life choices dismissed in the name of feminism. You may well be surprised at this, but I read feminist literature and believe in a lot of what feminism has to say. But I respect other women's right to choose.

AlienZombieMum · 09/01/2011 18:37

No - you're just another lawyer who thinks the only other people with any intelligence are lawyers. You're embarrassing

Wow. Just wow.

ShdNoBetta · 09/01/2011 18:40

You are insulting Margaret and have stooped to a new low to try and score petty points.
I am not surprised you of all people have trotted that one out.

MargaretGraceBondfield · 09/01/2011 18:41

What the pride thing? Really? It was you that said you had pride in your work.

ShdNoBetta · 09/01/2011 18:44

SNB. You have said that you were raped as a teen I wonder what long term effect that had on you and whether without that devastating crime you would have valued yourself as a commodity.

Low thing to trot out

Yes I do take pride in myself, my work, my family, my home.

MargaretGraceBondfield · 09/01/2011 18:44

SNB...Oh shit, yes the fact that you were raped. I thought very hard how to word it, but it is a known fact that many prostitutes have experienced sexual trauma which is a factor in their path to prostitution. I just wonder when it was you divorced your emotions and your body and whether your experience played a part. If not what was it that finally made you do it at 30+.

MargaretGraceBondfield · 09/01/2011 18:46

And I'm not trying to score points, I find this all very frustrating.

JessinAvalon · 09/01/2011 18:58

I don't see how decriminalising prostitution will help all women. It may help some women - the ones who say that they want to do the job, who say that they fancy 9/10 men that they sleep with, who say that they enjoy the sex - but what about the rest of us?

As Kittenshaped said much earlier on in the thread, the rest of the female population have to live with the consequences of the sense of entitlement that being able to buy a woman gives them. And it doesn't benefit the many women who are forced into the industry.

Ok, so we have a couple of prostitutes/ex prostitutes on here who love their jobs. Good for them. But do they ever stop to consider how what they are doing affects the rest of us?

The attitudes that come about from men being able to buy women get taken into the workplace and into the home and onto the street. We've had a few stories on here about women being attacked in their own home and by their own partners. Where do men get the idea from that it's acceptable to treat women like this? And why on earth does anyone think that condoning the buying of another woman, giving a man a sense of power & entitlement over women, will help that man's attitude in any way, shape or form?

ShdNoBetta · 09/01/2011 19:01

I have had friends since I was in my early 20s that did hooking work, I only had passing curiosity as I was happy with my life and what I was doing, it was not until a decade later when I decided I wanted to move on with a career change that required retraining, I did not like the thought of full time study and to work enough to also pay the bills so I put much thought and research into it before I decided to see if it was for me.
Over a decade later I have been in and out the industry as and when and I have absolutely no regrets.

One size does not fit all their either, as much as you would love me to say that I was severely traumatised, went off the rails, self medicated, self harmed and have difficulty with relationships in particular sex I am afraid I cannot indulge you. I have always been and remain a well rounded person.
With a healthy attitude to love, life and relationships.

And yet again I have to tell you that I do not divorce my emotions or my body from my work. Why are you constantly choosing to ignore what is being said to you?

Andre1960 · 09/01/2011 19:03

Sakura. You wrote: "This is a feminist board so the emphasis is on the men punters actually do have a choice"

If it is a feminist board, and I accept that description if you wish to use it (qualified by the caution that the term is sometimes used by women who want to claim the authority to speak for their sex - something I would automatically and as a matter of principle bridle against if any man made a similar claim on my behalf!), I think it is appropriate for it to consider any topic from any perspective. I have a sister in her late fifties who was a radical feminist in the 1980's and she scares me with her intellectual power, penetration and flexibility. Actually, no she doesn't scare me! She exhilarates me! Part of this is to do with her intellectual honesty. By all means place the emphasis on the choices that men punters have but, as with women, this is a matter of degree. We can talk for ever about the matter of degree, the mitigating circumstances, the particular difficulties appertaining to each person's situation as an individual and as a representative of their sex, our conditioning, our society, our history, etc., and hope that our situation will be considered kindly. Certainly we should be kind to each other because we are all subject to constraints. However, we tend to overplay those we are subject to and underplay the constraints of others. That is human nature - female and male. I am 50 years old and I tell you this is true. I am certain it is true of me and therefore I am certain it is true of you. We can have the discussion I have described but we can also speak about what tends to the good and what tends to the bad, whether it is a feminist board or not.

SNB

"But Andre everyone in paid employment rents themselves out to the highest bidder according to contract. 
I chose to not line others pockets but my own."

I have also worked for minimum wage. I have done very demeaning jobs but there is a way of doing a demeaning job in a manner that does not demean you. To an extent what you say is true, but the extent matters. The degree to which most paid work has the ability to transgress on you as a person is different to the degree to which having sex with someone can transgress on you as a person. This does not have to be the case, but it usually is. I have worked and I have had sex. They are different for me and that makes me believe they are probably different for you. Coming from the other direction: I want it to to be confirmed that they are different for me and I want that to be confirmed for my children who are approaching adulthood. If you make them different for you you help me and my children make them different for us also.

Sakura

"unfortunately, Andre the type of "power" you're talking about is in your head.
The truth is, the cold hard facts, are that women are under-represented in all economic and political institutions.
That is power, real power, not fake empowerment"
When women have at least 50% representation in parliament and hold at least 50% of society's resources, then and only then, will I be able to take stories of female power seriously

Everything I speak of is in my head. Where else would it come from? I agree that women should have equal representation in parliament and equal economic power. I will fight for those things because they are appropriate and just. When we have achieved them through our combined efforts there will remain many other things in our lives that we should be concerned with. Incidentally, I suspect that many prostitutes have more economic power than their punters but I do not consider this to be a gain for women!

I do not know the particularities of your situation. You may have a great deal of power or you may have almost none. My experience of men who have power is that they very often succumb to the temptation to abuse it. My experience of women who have power is that they very often succumb to the temptation to abuse it. When men abuse their power they deny it or claim it is not their fault. When women abuse their power they do the same. Men who have integrity do not do this. Women who have integrity don't either. If you want an example of where women have power look in the home. Many woman are not satisfied with this as their only province of power, and I agree it should not be, but it is their province of power and very real nonetheless Domestic violence is a very overt and obvious abuse of power in the home, although it is not the only one. The most prevalent form of domestic abuse is female on male. That is because the incidence of mothers hitting their sons is much higher than all other forms of hitting in families. I'm pretty sure that mothers hitting their daughters comes next! Mothers hit their children for all sorts of reasons, just as husband hit their wives for all sorts of reasons. However, the main reason is that the person doing the hitting is stronger than the person being hit. That is how it is with human beings but it does not have to be that way. My mother had enormous power, but she did not hit me. Furthermore, she taught me a great deal about honestly, integrity and responsibility. Her own background gave her every reason to be excused but she did not excuse herself. Such things are possible.

I am inclined to like feminists because they generally like women and so do I. I usually find that I end up on the same ground as them if they are advocates for women as human beings. If they are merely advocates for their sex, I always end up disagreeing with them and consider them in a similar light to those men who play the same dishonest game.

ShdNoBetta · 09/01/2011 19:17

I want it to to be confirmed that they are different for me and I want that to be confirmed for my children who are approaching adulthood. If you make them different for you you help me and my children make them different for us also.

Absolutely I can only say what is right for me.
All along I have said prostitution is not for everyone but it is for me.

AlienZombieMum · 09/01/2011 19:21

I don't see how decriminalising prostitution will help all women. It may help some women - the ones who say that they want to do the job

Ok here goes (again)

It is already illegal to buy sex from a woman on the street (with quite high penalties and risks of letters to your home), and also illegal for the woman.

So that is a moot point really, since it is already criminalised, which has caused harm in many places already (see my previous posts)

This leaves us with the rest of the prostitutes - those indoors or working through agencies or independently.

A minority of them will be trafficked or forced into prostitution by gangs or pimps. There are also already laws against buying sex (or even attempting to buy sex from) a women who has been trafficked or coerced, and also for "controlling for gain" (pimping basically). The new law was passed last year. Obviously this is the important law to be upheld - the specific offence of buying sex from a woman trafficked/forced.

This leaves the rest of the prostitutes- a huge number who are in this through choice. You cannot possibly believe that in the absence of a drug problem, coercion or force that a woman does not have any choices? . She could choose another other job or even benefits to survive, but chooses this one.

Why not put more energy into enforcing the laws we already have in place rather than create new ones which, as I have illustrated before, make it less safe for Sex Workers.

There are already laws against buying Sex from a Street Worker (vast majority on drugs so I would not say real choice)

There are already laws against pimping, trafficking and coercion and even a law against buying sex from forced women.

So why not enforce these (particularly the second one as I do think the first is actually the right idea but the wrong approach)

Please think about this.

AlienZombieMum · 09/01/2011 19:24

Where do men get the idea from that it's acceptable to treat women like this?

Well from the age old idea of marriage for one, but we do not ban marriage.

0karen · 09/01/2011 19:37

Oh so many posts, can't read them all

However I would like to make a point, in responce to

"JessinAvalon Sun 09-Jan-11 18:58:50

The attitudes that come about from men being able to buy women get taken into the workplace and into the home and onto the street. We've had a few stories on here about women being attacked in their own home and by their own partners. Where do men get the idea from that it's acceptable to treat women like this? And why on earth does anyone think that condoning the buying of another woman, giving a man a sense of power & entitlement over women, will help that man's attitude in any way, shape or form?"

Tomorrow I will go to work and sell myself for a few pounds, I won't have sex, instead I will stare at a computer screen.

Is there a great difference?

I would love to do some porn, but I looked into possibilities and if I was a little younger, or did not have two young girls or maybe I just had a tiny bit more courage then ?

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