It's official - I no longer exist!

[DrSeuss]

Another batch of cards this morning addressed to the mystery woman who lives in my house. I did not take my husband's name on marriage thirteen years ago, although I have no problem if others want to do so. I could understand if people addressed cards to X and Y Thingy, but what's with the whole Mr and Mrs X Thingy? My initial isn't X, my surname isn't Thingy. Et voila, I have ceased to exist! Most of these come from DH's family, who were at the wedding. I have learned to spell one Polish surname, one Italian and one Japanese in order to address cards to in-laws. Is it really asking too much for them to learn one simple English first name and a very short Scottish surname? I Know it's only a little thing but I do find it annoying!

I'm not that but was taught at english at school by a very prim and proper lady in her 60s - I can remember her lessons on how to address letters vividly.

For a married couple mr and mrs his initial surnmae is the correct way. If you put mrs her initial surname she is divorced.

It does seem oldfashioned but the image of Mrs Bantoft looms.

What if you address cards as Mr X Womans Surname? Would they help get the point across do you think?

Here in Belgium, women keep their maiden names. It gets a bit "untidy" though. When someone loses a relative/has a baby etc at work it is traditonal to publish a card with all the details so you get:

Joe Bloggs sadly died, he is survived by his wife Mary Smith and his children:

Joe Bloggs Jr and Anne Brown
Chris White and Judy Bloggs

And grandchildren:

Joseph Bloggs and Sarah Green
Snow White and Michael Black
Dick White and Brittany Spears

And then by the time you add in the brothers and sisters and their wives/husbands and their children, you have completely lost the plot. These things must cost a fortune to get printed and normally have several pages.

i'm not that old

"For a married couple mr and mrs his initial surnmae is the correct way"

Perhaps etiquette dictated this decades ago, but surely the correct way now is "use the default that most people use, but switch to the chosen preference if politely corrected"...?

The "correct" way should change with the times.

nickel nope, it was the idea of 'illegitimate' children being allowed to have the dad's name that confused him. my parents are convinced that marriage is the only natural state for a woman, therefore anything that an unmarried woman does must be highly dubious/illegal. they are also convinced that the children don't have the right to inherit anything from the dad.

they sooooo can't cope with friends of ours who are a vicar (her) and have a doctorate (him). apparently HIS name should always go first, even though, according to their rules, a rev outranks a doc. 'but women shouldn't be using rev as a title, that's not the way it's done' was what i was told!!

my mum has completely missed the fact that for about 20 years i've addressed mail to them as mrs & mr lastname.

Portofino - this is why official birth cards are so popular - to remind the whole family of the parents and children's names.

DH and I both kept our surnames, and as I do a lot of our organising, he has been referred to as Mr RhinestoneCowgirl as often as I have been called Mrs HisSurname.

I would much prefer that people used our firstnames on an envelope - I mean, there are only 4 of us living at this address!

I feel this is a teeny tiny problem really and having just spent 3 hours writing Christmas cards and wondering what the hell to write when the woman doesn't take her husband's name, I wish there was a recognised way of addressing envelopes.

I agree - my christmas card addressing last night was traditional way for old relatives and first names/surname or just mr and mrs x for the rest.

Minefield.

Works the other way aswell. My mum threw a card in the bin from her old workplace adressed to her as Ms. Recently widowed she was terribly upset.

because we moved 2 years ago & still have paperwork that is being sorted out (due to immigration rules, not us being slow) i have had to fill in many forms online.

there is an array of conventions being adhered to out there.

some automatically put the man first, some put the first name you enter first, some just want to know if you are 'mr' or 'ms', others give a choice of possible titles (bing in the US, it doesn't include things like princess though), some just want an initial & last name.

as different countries do different things, i think we should be flexible.

the whole point of etiquette is that it is meant to set guidelines which ease awkward social situations, therefore being flexible is a part of that. it is actually anti-etiquette to insist on rigidly following the etiquette rules.

Using your husband's initial as Mrs His initial Brown was proper etiquette in years gone by and still might be.

i have no problem being addressed as Mrs DH initial Our joint surname.

It probably still is the "correct" thing, ItalianLady-perhaps my annoyance is that it´s my MIL who does it-a family memeber!

Howsthe Serenity - i like your solution (need to know her maiden name, though!)

kissass they sooooo can't cope with friends of ours who are a vicar (her) and have a doctorate (him). apparently HIS name should always go first, even though, according to their rules, a rev outranks a doc. 'but women shouldn't be using rev as a title, that's not the way it's done' was what i was told!!
heeheeehheee

and frgr you are correct - the etiquette only refers to if you don't know the preference.
etiquette also dictates that you ask first before assuming.

My DS was given my Exp's surname on his birth certificate, as we were intending to marry anyway. But when we didn't and I ended up being a single parent I had a nightmare with nursery calling me Mrs V S-J when I was actually Miss B. As luck would have it the ExP was useless and didn't want to see his DS so a changed DS's surname to mine.

I was under the impression that Ms was reserved for the divorced? Also, I wouldn't take huge offence over the addressing of Christmas cards - people usually have hundreds to send and it may not have even crossed their minds. I doubt it will have been out of spite and most will probably be a little bit about it if you tear them a new one over it!

"I feel this is a teeny tiny problem really and having just spent 3 hours writing Christmas cards and wondering what the hell to write when the woman doesn't take her husband's name, I wish there was a recognised way of addressing envelopes."

For us: Mr Hisname and Ms Myname is fine. When we have kids, the Myname/Hisname family will be ok. Or just put the full names inside and whoever you know best on the envelope. Or write everyone?s first names on the envelope. My friend has 3 different surnames in her family and I refer to them by a childhood nickname! I don?t think envelopes really need to be addressed formally. DH always puts ?Pops? on his dad?s, and they get there just fine.

That would really annoy me as well. It is just rude to ignore someones requests.

My first name is Livy and I get every spelling imaginable - Livvy, Livi, Livie, Livvie, Lyvy, Liyvy.... not to mention the countless Lizzies, Libbys and Liddys.

Now I have no issue if this is the first time someone has attempted to write my name - it is an unusual name. But if you have been told how to spell it repeatedly or if you are my own aunty (yep!) then learn it! Or, if that is too difficult, then write the correct spelling in your address book and check every time you want to send me something!

Rant over!

Asteria: "I doubt it will have been out of spite....."

The unfortunate thing is that it is, Asteria. 99% of people manage to remember my surname ? the 1% who don?t just happen to be the ones who have a problem with the fact that I didn?t change! (And my Grandma, but I forgive her because she was thrilled that I was keeping her name, I think she just thinks that legally my name just is my husband?s, whether I like it or not!)

Asteria Anyone can use Ms if they so wish. I have used it since I was 14 used it, even then I didn't think it was anyone's business to know whether I was married or not. As I get older I have become more and more entrenched in my view about naming conventions ie I hate them, and tend to mutter about patriarchal etiquette systems that are designed to repress to women if the subject comes up in conversation.

Apologies - shouldn't be second "used it".

Asteria "I was under the impression that Ms was reserved for the divorced?"

No, I've used this since the age of 12, before and after marriage, when my mum couldn't answer why a man's title didn't tell me if he was married or not. It's the same thing. It simply doesn't tell you the martial status of the woman you're referring to. Much more professional at work, say, unless you're corrected, in which case you should refer to the lady exactly how she's asked to be named :)

The worst reason to do something as significant as changing your name is "because that's just the way it's done". Change because you love his name more, change because you hate yours, change because you agree with the symbolism of changing your name as a loving gesture - but not "because that's just how it is". Urgh!

So... I've always been Ms :) Never been divorced, and don't plan to be

how about "family thingy?"

sorry but i can't see that its worth getting upset by the name on the envelope.

as i said my gran writes mrs y thingy rather than mrs x thingy - ie dh's initial on MY birthday card, annoying but just get over it.

i have always writen address cards to mr and mrs y thingy even when the women kept her name, never occured to me otherwise. inside write dear x and y. of course if it was to her herslef would write ms x hersurname

I've used Ms since I turned 18.

(And when DH was registering DD at the GPs when she was a few days old he actually called me to ask whether he should put her down as Miss or Ms, which I thought was sweet -- pointed out that as DS was Master, Miss would suffice for a gurgling infant girl. Although, of course, DS will get automatically Mistered when he reached adulthood while DD will have to choose whether to Make A Statement).

Ms does, of course, tell you the martial status of the woman you're referring to, frgr. If she had a martial status she'd be Brigadier-General or similar, rather than Ms...

I'm not bothered about how envelopes from friends in general are addressed (most of them from people of our generation do just give both names, though). It does bug me when close relatives who know (or should bloody well know) that neither of us changed our names do it.

SantaIsMyLoveSlave, I don't understand your last paragraph. I think I'm being a bit slow today!