to think that people who feed their kids junk to the point they are obese should be visited by social services?!

[sawdusty]

It makes me so angry when you see these morbidly obese children (fat from food, not any other medical reason) waddling around and there mums buying them more bars of chocolate and packets of crips, wtf are they DOING?!

"This is true. But what I need to maintain my weight is a lot more than others do to maintain theres. So I get to eat a Twix and a bag of Hula Hoops at work yesterday without thinking about it. Others don't. That's probably abusing my body, I should be eating a banana or somesuch. But the point is because you don't see excess fat on me, so I get to be in your smug club. But I'd rather not be, to be frank."

Well that isn't particularly healthy certainly but the fact remains you're not eating to the point where you are morbidly obese. I don't always eat as well as I should but I don't eat to the point where I'm twice the weight that I should be.

"Because what you're exhibiting is nothing short of playground bullying."

Bullshit. If someone is fat that is their choice and I have every right to hold them in contempt for their greed, their gluttony, their abject lack of self control, their lack of self respect and their lack of respect for those that will inevitably have to look after them when they're not able to themselves.

If I'm having a go at someone because they've got red hair or because they're a man or because they're dyslexic then feel free to call me a bully. But to judge someone because they've made a free choice to stuff themselves to obesity? Damn right I will.

"Why aren't you exercising your ire on tax avoiders, or binge drinkers, or drink-drivers. No, it's much more fun to tell yourself you're better than the fat person standing next to you. Despite what they've done in their life, and what you've done in yours. You're just better. Yeah, right "

Strawman - Not that its relevant to the discussion but I'm happy to condemn them all. Though I actually have slightly more sympathy for those that wreck their bodies due to drug dependency - but everyone makes their own choices and just as I've no time for the junkie who steals to fund their habit I've no time for the fatty who can't walk to bus stop without stopping for breath.

"There are people with weight issues in my life whom I love and yes I worry about their weight, in the same way I worry about my friends who smoke. But do I feel better than them? No."

As I say, I am feel better than them. I'm certainly not at my peak - my last triathlon was years ago - but I'm proud of the fact that I have looked after my body, I'm proud that I don't stuff my face with enough calories to make me obese and then whine that I've a "slow metabolism" or some such self pitying, whining, excuse seeking crap. Not that I should be proud - society shouldn't be so tolerant of those that abuse their bodies in such a disgusting way.

This "oh, don't pick on the fatties" attitude here on mumsnet really does annoy me. Smokers - round them up and shoot them. Park in a P&C bay - god help them.

But someone who consciously makes a choice to abuse their body to such an extent that they're obese. Oh no - can't say a thing. It's not their fault. They've a low metabolism, they're "addicted to food", they've . Well sod that for a game of soldiers.

If you're fat - it's your fault and it's your choice and I will judge you for taking something so precious and wrecking it. I will judge you for lacking the self control to say no to the pizza. I will judge you for the overhead you're going to place on the NHS for the health care that your wrecked body will no doubt need.

Why are you more sympathetic to drug addicts? That makes no sense at all

"Why are you more sympathetic to drug addicts? That makes no sense at all"

Because (some) drugs create a chemical dependency that is not only incredibly hard to break but causes withdrawal.

But then the decision to abuse that drug was a free one so my cup does not runneth over.

Winward, genuine question.

How do you feel about self harmers?

In my mind, nobody in their "right" mind would want unsightly scars all the way up their arms where people could see them. But for some reason, self-harmers are unable to overcome the need for the emotional benefit they get from self harming to avoid this at the point they do it.

Nobody in their "right" mind would want to weigh 20 stone and look that way, feel that way, have the health problems that come from that level of obesity, would they?

How do you feel the two compare?

Regarding drug addiction, are you aware that food consumption, particularly that of refined carbohydrates and simple carbohydrates (sugar, and other things) can cause a physiological high?

Also, had it occured to you that some people reach obesity through alcoholism more than a food problem, or where food is only really a small part of the problem?

All genuine questions and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this as it is something I have pondered a fair bit myself.

I wish sawdusty was still posting. For a new poster (well, by any standard in fact) she argued her case really well. I thought it all made sense, anyway. Ok, so bits of the wording of her first post were mildly insulting ("waddling") and it's unrealistic to think that social services could make a sensible judgement call on when intervention was necessary - but surely people can't disagree that there's an important point being brought out here??

Obesity in childhood: not down to children, they need guidance and an environment in which healthy eating is promoted. Mugglewump sounds to have exactly the right idea to me in making sure that food which her DD tends to eat excessively is not around all the time. Amazed her approach is being criticised re control - surely children need to have a measure of control imposed in all sorts of areas?!

I also didn't see any "fatty-bashing". Food issues are complex but, let's be honest, it's very rare that it's a medical (physical) issue. So, I do think people need support and understanding in dealing with obesity BUT they also need to take responsibility for themselves and their children. People generally know what's healthy and what's not, but there are issues in not knowing how to cook healthily/cheaply/quickly. That is the main thing that needs addressing, but if school and/or parents haven't taught you how to do this, is it really so hard to pick up a few tips from telly programmes, look up recipes on the internet or buy a recipe book?

I was terribly overweight as a child/young adult so I do understand the urge to reach for a comforting chocolate bar. I've also been ridiculed when I used gyms and went jogging - humiliating beyond belief sometimes. But once you get to that size, it's a choice. You do something about it (ideally with help) or you take the consequences of being fat.

I don't have a great deal of sympathy to be honest - I certainly don't consider self harming a genuine psychological issue (though that's not to say that it may be not be a symtom of one) in the same criteria as (for example) clinical depression.

At the end of the day, it's a choice and everyone has to make their choices and live with the consequences.

Some people chose badly.

And I have never, in thirty years of dealing with the underbelly of society met an obese drunk.

And finally please don't suggest that a pseudo psychological addiction is the same thing as a genuine chemical dependency...

x-posted with LooktoWindward (I type slowly...). Ok, so now I see fatty-bashing.

I don't think that helps in the slightest. Yes, it's a choice to continue to eat too much, but for many many reasons it can feel like not much of a choice iyswim. If you're miserable being fat but still struggle to change, support and help is far more constructive than being called greedy, lazy etc which can make those with low self-esteem etc feel even worse. Changing the habits of a lifetime is really really hard and you need to be very determined and strong to go about it - unlikely to work if you feel you're being knocked from all directions.

That's okay Winward, I wanted to see your thoughts on mental health issues, and now I have seen an insight into how you view these, the rest of your posts are making a little more sense in the context of your beliefs.

Oh Jesus LooktoWindward who the feck are the underbelly of society???!!!

Can you please define these people?

Wrath is as much a sin as gluttony...

"Oh Jesus LooktoWindward who the feck are the underbelly of society???!!!"

Generally speaking, the people I have locked up during a thirty year career as a copper.

I guess "underbelly" was me being overly dramatic...

Ah now the smugness makes sense.

Windward - when someone is addicted to drugs/alcohol and decides to quit, they can completely give up.
If someone has an addiction to food, and yes, it is possible, they cannot give up food. They have to keep eating to survive, but they have to change what they eat.
I can only assume that you've never struggled with bad habits or addictions, as I think you'd have a different attitude to the one you have now which, to be frank, stinks.
To a certain extent, I do agree with the op, and I do believe that some parents need more guidance than others, but when it comes to adults needing to lose weight, it's coming across the many lovely people like windward that can really knock you back to a place where food ( it seems) is the only comfort - and I'm sorry to say, but if you've never been in that place, you really don't know what it's like.
I am overweight, and could easily blame it on several things in my past, but the bottom line is, I was allowed, as a child, to develop very bad eating habits, which are very difficult to kick

Because of this, I am very careful about what my dc eat, but also very careful to point out to them how much teasing/ bullying can hurt and set back people
who would do so much better with a bit of support.

Winward do you express these opinions in RL? I'd love to meet your circle of friends...I bet they are really supportive.

"If someone has an addiction to food, and yes, it is possible, they cannot give up food. They have to keep eating to survive, but they have to change what they eat. "

It isn't an addiction. I accept that there are psychological issues around food but it isn't an addiction. I've seen withdrawal and what it can do so please stop this "food addiction" rubbish.

just for LooktoWindypops

During binges compulsive overeaters might consume anything from 5000 to 15000 kilo calories in a day, which results as an addictive "high" not unlike those experienced through drug usage, and a release from psychological stress. In bulimics, this high may be intensified by the act of purging. Researchers have speculated there is an abnormality of endorphin metabolism in the brain of binge eaters that triggers the addictive process. This is in line with other theories of addiction that attribute it not to avoidance of withdrawal symptoms, but to a primary problem in the reward centers of the brain. For the Compulsive Overeater, the ingestion of trigger foods causes release of the neurotransmitter, serotonin. This could be another sign of neurobiological factors contributing to the addictive process. Abstinence from addictive food and food eating processes causes withdrawal symptoms in those with eating disorders. There may be higher levels of depression and anxiety due to the decreased levels of serotonin in the individual.

Ok, I'll go with phsycological issues. But that does indicate a deep rooted problem with food that for most will take support to sort out.
Like I said before, an attitude like yours is anything but helpful to anyone who is overweight.

Let me fix that for you:

During binges compulsive overeaters might consume anything from 5000 to 15000 kilo calories in a day, which results as an addictive "high" not unlike those experienced through drug usage, and a release from psychological stress. In bulimics, this high may be intensified by the act of purging. Researchers have speculated there is an abnormality of endorphin metabolism in the brain of binge eaters that triggers the addictive process. This is in line with other theories of addiction that attribute it not to avoidance of withdrawal symptoms, but to a primary problem in the reward centers of the brain. For the Compulsive Overeater, the ingestion of trigger foods causes release of the neurotransmitter, serotonin. This could be another sign of neurobiological factors contributing to the addictive process. Abstinence from addictive food and food eating processes causes withdrawal symptoms in those with eating disorders. There may be higher levels of depression and anxiety due to the decreased levels of serotonin in the individual.

What you're saying is that someone /thinks/ that there might be psychological dependency symptoms for /some/ people related to food.

I've seen people shit themselves during a bad withdrawal episode. I remember one notable time when some poor sod managed to dislocate his arm and didn't even realise it.

You'll understand if I'm sceptical of the idea of "food addiction".

TBH I think many people recoil a bit or feel some revulsion when looking at really obese people, it's just not PC to say so. Like everything else when you get to know someone and if you like them then their weight/looks or whatever doesn't really matter as you take the individual person as how you find them. But, I'd never want to make them feel bad by ridiculing them or giving this message to my children. I do tell my children though that if they eat too much junk or sweets then it will make them unhealthy and perhaps fat - so maybe this bias many have towards 'fat' is ingrained at really early age.

So are all addictions that extreme or are there different levels? I was under the impression that nicotine was addictive but going cold turkey wouldn't cause one to shit ones self.

Regarding kids who have medical issues that give them a tendency towards obesity; I agree that some illnesses/ medications & being bedbound or having decreased mobility etc can contribute to this. But I think these kids need more help with controlling their diet, not to be left to become obese.
These kids are already suffering with poor health & the worst thing for them is to be left to become overweight as well.

LookToWinward - you do your uniform a diservice. In fact, you do your species a diservice.

If kids are being brought up by people like you, it's no wonder bullying is rife - seeing as you feel it's fine for someone to be bullied for a choice they make (according to you - which is horse shit anyway).

"never met an obese drunk?" Really? I have.

Well not all drugs create a physical dependency and withdrawal symptoms vary depending on the drug.

But I've never seen anyone shit themselves because they weren't able to have a Mars Bar.

Look, I'm being flippant but simply put. Obesity causes this country vast damage - socially and economically.

In an age where smokers and other social ills are vilified I fail to see why we should be "understanding" of something that causes so much harm to both the individual and society.