AIBU to think that some parents loose sight of what is acceptable behaviour?

[caspered]

Just been to Pizzahut for what should have been an afternoon treat but spoiled by other parents lack of control of their kids. My two DDs (3 and 6) are not perfect, but we have just been confronted in Pizzahut by one child, about 5 having a total meltdown, which happens I know we have all been there, BUT the parents let this meltdown go in in full volume for 40 minutes!!! I have ignored my child when a tantrum has been in full play, but not in a restaurant where other people (AND PARENTS) are trying to relax or at least eat in some kind of peace. Its not as if there was only one adult, but there was four of them, after 30 minutes the people at the next table just left!! Then to add insult to injury, the next table along with a 'toddler' got out their potty and put it under the table and put their daughter on it in full view of everyone!! I know that potty training can be difficult but Pizzahut have toilets and large ones big enough for someone to sit on a potty in. Quite honestly after this afternoon I can understand why people who have no children sometimes quite frankly look on some parents as some kind of alien species dragged up through the dark ages!! OK feel a bit better now I got that off my chest

Yes but it's also about allowing other to enjoy themselves not irritated but tantruming children. We all have a right to enjoy a meal out with or without children...mind you pizza hut wouldn't be enjoyable for me even if there were no children screaming or weeing under the table. I mean cheese crust pizzas up to 5 thousand calories for a large one and unlimited kids icecream no wonder we have an obesity problem;-)

yes, but why are certain cultures so irritated by children? I can't help but thinking that when society is intolerant of children and irritated by them, rather than seeing them as little idisosyncratic people who do have tantrums, then this causes lots of problems for mothers

Why should I or anyone else be more tolerant of tantrumming children?

It very much depends on where they are tantrumming too. In an open space or a park or even in a shop where you can walk away, you can sort of turn a blind ear to it but in a restaurant, a coffee shop or in a library, cinema or somewhere like that I'm afraid we shouldn't be expected to simply tolerate it and smile knowingly as if "we've all been there - I haven't. My child never had a uncontrollable trantrum in a place like that. In those situations parents should be aware enough to know that they should remove their child from the situation and deal with it appropriately and if that means taking it home again then so be it I say.

Yes, we are all mothers but we are not a homoeneous group who should all feel some sort of solidarity and "sisterhood".

Some people know how to be decent parents and to raise children proerly and some clearly have no idea. The ones who don't and allow their children to behave like animals should feel the full force of society's disapproval in my view.

And there is a lot to be said for what people are saying here about people thinking that no one dare challenge their little angels. To be honest, middle class yummy mummy types are the most guilty of this of all.

Actually research shows that in cultures where children are more tolerated by society, where they are welcomed with open arms into restaurants by the staff and clientele, there tends to be less public tantrumming

"Actually research shows that in cultures where children are more tolerated by society, where they are welcomed with open arms into restaurants by the staff and clientele, there tends to be less public tantrumming"

You have the cause and effect reversed here. Children in such cultures are welcomed because parents will not let them have tantrums and have explained what an acceptable behaviour in a restaurant is - kids don't become magically well-behaved just because they can go to a restaurant.

NO, that's wrong ullainga. Children don't have tantrums because they are welcomed. Children can feel hostility a mile off (their job is to read the emotional cues of the adults surrounding them) and this results in tantrumming.

In other words, in a friendly welcoming atmosphere, children are more relaxed and therefore less likely to tantrum

no I disagree as I live in one of those countries where children are welcome. Because they behave and parents make sure of that.

There are not too many people who are hostile to children as such, just the children as described in the OP.

Another example.
LAst week I was visiting a friend so I was in an unknown area. I pottered around the town with my kids while she was at work. It was pouring with rain and I went into a coffe shop (starbucks) to get a coffee. DD (4 yrs) was a bit hyper and loud and I knew it was unacceptable, so I paid for my coffee quickly and left.
As I stood outside in the rain with my bedraggled soaked children, I turned to look inside the warm cozy coffee shop where all the childless people were comfortably slurping their coffee and thought to myself " Is this normal ?"

Yes, it is normal to get the mothers and children out of the way so that people don't get irritated by them, even if that means tiny children and babies end up in the cold rain.

Tantrums. Meh. They happen.

Shitting under the table is off-key, though.

And Scuttlebutter, you sound like a right bundle of laughs

No, staff and parents expect them to behave because they believe they can, and so they do.
In child-unfriendly cultures staff, parents and clientele are mistrustful of children, intolerant and don't like it when they tantrum. This creates stress for children.

ColdComfortFarm I am so so horrified that a guest at a party took out one of the hosts bowls and let her child take a dump in it! I can't move past that comment. Did anyone say anything?? Why on earth didn't they use the toilet?? How was getting a piece of crockery easier???

GenevieveHawking - very well put. I'm beginning to wonder whether many parents actually ENJOY their children screaming/behaving badly/drawing attention to themselves as part of this 'aren't I clever, look at me, I've got a child' notion in society. One of my closest colleagues at school is Nigerian, and he has deliberately withheld the information that his gf is preg because he doesn't subscribe to the overwhelming view in this country of: 'Aren't you clever - you've produced a child - well done mate !'. He believes that your children represent you and your values when out and about, and I must say that all the African children in my school, without exception (9% of 1060) are an absolute credit to their parents and role-models to the other students in terms of initiative, good behaviour for learning & social skills. I think too many parents of UK heritage pay lipservice to this notion, but are afraid to be seen dealing firmly with their children in public, with a result that increasing numbers of people avoid children in general which is just compounding the problem. That said, standards & behaviour should start at home and I also brought up three children who NEVER ONCE behaved badly in public. I was just too busy with three of them in two years to put up with any nonsense. This potty anecdote just reinforces to me how much we've lost the plot in the UK.

albertcamus, no, in my experience nobody thinks mothers are clever for producing children. If they notice mothers at all^ it's usually with irritation

Although to be fair, when I was outside that shop in the rain an African man said to me, "you mothers, you do a very good job".
I felt a bit warmer

sakura I agree with you that children sense an atmosphere quickly and behave accordingly. I'm now finding that the younger students I teach - Year 7 & 8 - are the products of the worsening attitude in society towards children, and are almost apologetic for their existence. How sad that it. This is a result of the anti-child sentiment growing in society due to the selfish incompetence or arrogant determination, depending on how you look at it, of a few parents who take no responsiblity for the impact of their childrens' behaviour on other members of society. I hate the concept of Dispersal Orders which prohibit three or more youngsters being together when out & about, we had more freedom than this when growing up. If only children were appropriately controlled (for want of a better word) from a young age, none of this would have come about.

I also think that as society has become more consumerist (starbucks popping up like mushrooms on every corner) people just buying so much more than their parents and grandparents, eating out more etc, children are under more stress to conform in ways that are increasingly difficult for them to do. What children really need is farms and animals and fields every single day not coffee shops and restaurants.

Sakura, I have to admit I haven't felt any of the widespread hostility you're talking about Mine have had tantrums in public places before (and, last weekend, at a wedding, I was mortified but H took him out and calmed him down after it had gone on for a couple of minutes), so i'm not pretending that i deal with little angels, far from it

but i haven't felt shoo'd out of restaurants or coffee shops - we don't live in a particularly nice area but the local one bends over backwards to welcome kids - they have a seating area which they advertise as good for families (decent seating, lots of space for buggies, it's actually the reason i keep going back there!)

but anyway i'm getting off topic - you seem to think there's a widespread hostility towards mums and young kids - when my H is the primary carer for ours during his days of the week (he's part time), you wouldn't believe how much crap he gets (changing facilities in women's toilets only, having to take our DD into the men's toilets if the disabled one is in use, etc)... if you think they're hostile to you, try being a SAHD!

so - i'm just not buying your conviction here, unless you've had REALLY bad luck in public places (in which case i'd ask around childed friends for advice - don't give coffee shops and restaurants repeat business if they're just making life harder :))

Also, remember that being 'good' often came about from the threat of physical punishment which is now, thankfully, illegal.

I still don't see why parents should be ostracized from basic modern day pleasure such as buying a coffee on a cold day when it's raining outside . (DD was massively jet-lagged which was why she was so hyper that day. There is always a reason why kids play up if you think about it)

frgr Not bad luck, just high standards of how mothers should be treated i.e as human beings like other people. You will always get the odd nice shopkeeper or restaurant owner who likes kids, but it's not the norm and children are still expected to be seen and not heard in public places as we have seen so clearly on this thread.

"why parents should be ostracized from basic modern day pleasure such as buying a coffee on a cold day"

Well, it's already been discussed on the thread - the few bad apples (parents letting their kids piss and shit under tables in restaurants, letting them lay on the floor around waiting staff carrying hot foot, whatever) ruin it for the rest of it.

e.g. it makes me sad to think that one of the local shops near my mum's has had to put a sign up now saying "no more than 2 kids at once" - a very lovely lady who is a friend of the family owns it, and i grew up with her watching me after school, but they're losing too much money from shop lifting... you might view this as anti-children, but what is the owner of a public place (a shop) meant to do in that case? For what it's worth she doesn't have any kids of her own but loves kids. but ones who know how to behave! i think that's exactly the sort of divide we're talking about here....

sakura I noticed this yesterday during a brief visit to John Lewis which resembled a baby & toddler group, even on a Saturday afternoon. It's all about money & material goods in this society and I agree that there should be more activities such as those you mention for children. Every July I take a group of Year 10s aged 15 to Geneva where they have their eyes opened to the fact that you can have a fantastic time listening to free music, sit with people in public places & converse in a civilised way and enjoy the beautiful environment - which is also a busy city - without rushing to the nearest McDonalds or shops. They invariably bring back much of the spending money their parents give them because a) they've been too busy to go shopping b) they realise that the other youngsters - from all over the world - aren't especially worried about what they're wearing and c) it's great value for money in the Youth Hostel and they realise that eating out in expensive places is a waste of money. We have much to learn from other countries. I was in Eindhoven, NL, two weeks ago and observed complete integration of children into weekend life including the library, cafes, an art exhibition, a design show & a restaurant. It was not surprising to find that, as a result, the teenagers I met in our link school were civilised, confident and happy young people. I'm sorry you felt you had to stand outside Starbucks in the rain, I wish we could reverse the growing anti-child sentiment in the UK :(

so why is it that children "know how to behave" in cultures where no-one would dream of putting that type of sign up on a shop?

What do you mean by "divide" . You mean between those people who like children and people who are irritated by them?

Do you know that in the UK there is a device called a Mosquito which is affixed to shops. It emits a high-pitched shrieking sound that only people aged between 12 and 17 can hear! It's to stop teenagers hanging around outside shops. So if a teenager wants to buy a pint of milk for his mum he's subjected to something similar to a dog-whistle. Forget human rights. Young adults are another section of society who are demonized.
And then people get suprised when they act up

thank you for your last post albertcamus. Yes, I think that's what I'm getting at. It all begins with the way mothers are regarded which exacerbates stress all round and ultimately, for society.
I heard teenagers in the NL are very civilized.

I would dearly like to have a coffee in Starbucks with my child in tow but I cannot because he will tantrum.

He's autistic and me and his dad have long since given up trying to eat or drink in public with him. We cannot go to the cinema. Normal day trips for us do not happen because I cannot bear the looks we get from people.

He walks, he talks, he looks completely normal.

And so we get judged.

Maybe the kid in Pizza Hut was on the spectrum? Maybe the parents were trying to brazen it out?

Just a thought.