AIBU to think that some parents loose sight of what is acceptable behaviour?

[caspered]

Just been to Pizzahut for what should have been an afternoon treat but spoiled by other parents lack of control of their kids. My two DDs (3 and 6) are not perfect, but we have just been confronted in Pizzahut by one child, about 5 having a total meltdown, which happens I know we have all been there, BUT the parents let this meltdown go in in full volume for 40 minutes!!! I have ignored my child when a tantrum has been in full play, but not in a restaurant where other people (AND PARENTS) are trying to relax or at least eat in some kind of peace. Its not as if there was only one adult, but there was four of them, after 30 minutes the people at the next table just left!! Then to add insult to injury, the next table along with a 'toddler' got out their potty and put it under the table and put their daughter on it in full view of everyone!! I know that potty training can be difficult but Pizzahut have toilets and large ones big enough for someone to sit on a potty in. Quite honestly after this afternoon I can understand why people who have no children sometimes quite frankly look on some parents as some kind of alien species dragged up through the dark ages!! OK feel a bit better now I got that off my chest

wow, aggressive post narky.
I don't think people are snobbish for not wanting to see a child pee under a table in a restaurant BUT I do think society is intolerant of parents (wrt the temper tantrum thing) and I do think that society, in general, is inimical to parents and that some parents struggle.
No, I wouldn't want a turd a few feet away from me in a restaurant, but then perhaps restaurants should have a kids area, for example, with small toilets, within easy access for quick emergencies, that sort of thing.
I do think society puts a LOT of pressure on children to conform to adult standards that they're just not capable of (hence the temper tantruming). The potty under the table was a bit extreme, but I would say the parents were struggling and misguided, not vile

I'm sorry Sakura but how can there be "extenuating circumstances"?!!

Surely it would take longer to faff about getting a potty out and ushering the child under the table to sit on it than it ever would to simply take the child to the toilet like a normal civilised human being.

Presumably you're assuming that the "extenuating circumstances" were simply that the child wanted to relieve itself? Well sorry, but if that's the case and the child isn't wearing a nappy to relive itself in then it just has to go to the toilet - simple as that. FFS if we don't socialise them to know that that's what people do in those circumstances then what hope is there?!!

Restaurants aren't home and children also have to be socialised to realise that they don't behave in public the same as they do at home.

Sitting on potties in toilets in restautants is fine as far as I'm concerned. Sitting on potties under tables in restaurants, however, isn't.

Just because they're children it doesn't make any level of behaviour acceptable from them and society certainly shouldn't tolerate it.

No Sakura, you're totally missing the point.

Society is not intolerant enough of parents who don't know how to parent effectively or socialise their children properly to be decent, considerate, civilised human beings.

Well..society certainly tolerates a lot of shitty behaviour from adults. Hooters restaurants are beginning to open everywhere. Hooters is is a place where women who work there have to sign a disclaimer saying they don't mind being sexually harassed.

Anyway, yes, I am not advocating the peeing under the table thing, but I'm saying that society is inimical to children, basically. So if you're in a crucial point in your toilet training, or have a child who has a lot of tantrutms, or even breastfeeding in some establishments you are going to have to stay at home.
Now, I would never do that myself, so I don't know what prompted the parents to do it, but I think they are misguided.

As for socialisation?? Do you think that child is going to be peeing under the table when they're 18? I think not. Socialisation equals getting children to conform in ways that are often difficult for the parents and children.

Perhaps the parents should have stayed at home and not gone out. But that is my point. Society is inimical to mothers and children. Is this right?

Emptyshell's post of 23:24 is genius and i agree with every word.

Genevieve I agree with your last point. Which is why I think it was great that the anti-smacking law was brought in. Parents need to be gently guided because many weren't parented well themselves.

40 minutes?? Sakura as a parent you have to take some responsibilty for your childs behaviour and how it impacts on others...I agree society can be intolerant of parents...for example breast feeding..mothers have been asked in the past to breast-feeding in toilets...that is unacceptable..would an adult eat their dinner in a toilet???...but peeing under a table in a restaurant is not acceptable..its not an accident is it

Yes, I've just mentioned the breastfeeding analogy Mumcentreplus. I think it's very hypocritical that some people think it's normal to allow a mother to breastfeed her baby in a public toilet.

How does it impact on others? Seriously? Is it the noise? I'm sure if people from accross the table to the child tried to get him to laugh, or if an old lady offered to take him while the parents ate, in other words if society helped parents, then there would be no problem with a screaming child. Children do scream. You don't ostracize parents for this.

I hear you Sakura I've been there before 2 children 18mths apart...

I work in a front-line job at times with mothers of small children and I always try to distract little ones with paper and pens or questions because I understand how hard it can be as a parent...

but parents also have to understand their childrens behaviour can impact on others and taking action is reasonable...

The only time I've ever really lost it with my children is when other people have been glaring at me to "do something" out and about, if I was allowed to handle it they way we normal would, to take her outside and tell her off it would have all been fine but no people interfered and I ended up upset with her when really I was upset with the "helpers".

I'm with Emptyshell. It is indeed incidents like this that are filed in my "Just when you'd seen it all in the Parents Entitlement" folder. Not only do us childless not deserve Christmas holidays according to a recent thread, but now we have to watch your precious tots shit under the table while we eat. Oh, and listen to a 45 minute meltdown. Classy. But,heigh ho, it takes a village and all that..... I'll just carry on doing my animal volunteer work and have to pick up the pieces when yet another selfish mare decides her cute little doggy isn't so cute now she has a baby and she can't afford a dog walker and it's all too much...

And no I am not a fan of breast feeding in toilets, but that is totally irrelevant. Most human societies (hell, even our dogs) have taboos about not shitting or peeing where/while others/us are eating. But of course we all know that toddler pee is really rosewater and baby poo is really sterile..

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I take my hat off to the many parents who put in the hours of work and effort and consistency to ensue their children have good table manners and are socialised - it doesn't happen by magic, and if you do it, the rest of us appreciate it. Sakura and the oaf in the post are the reason why I and others do groan when we see families arrive in the restuarant, why we no longer even bother to go anywhere remotely family friendly (synonym for Beirut style noise and "incoming" cries when food is being hurled).

It is indeed incidents like this that are filed in my "Just when you'd seen it all in the Parents Entitlement" folder. Not only do us childless not deserve Christmas holidays according to a recent thread, but now we have to watch your precious tots shit under the table while we eat. Oh, and listen to a 45 minute meltdown. Classy. But,heigh ho, it takes a village and all that.....

Well said Scuttlebutter!

A few weeks ago in Costa Coffee, a mother decided to change her baby's dirty nappy on the sofa. He was about 10-12 months old and the smell was terrible. Peopel were getting up and moving away from her. She didn't even have any wipes with her and so she used costa napkins and asked for a cup of warm water to clean his arse with, using the napkins. I don't need to see and smell that when I'm eating my lunch and particularly not when there is a Mothercare next to the coffee shop which undoubtedly has a mother and baby changing room. The mother ate her lunch and drank her coffee when she was finished changing him without washing her hands. Absolutely disgusting.

scuttlebutter off the point but why are you on a parenting website when you show such disdain for children, e.g 'precious tots', 'the reason why I and others groan when we see families arrive in a restaurant'.

I am not advocating urinating in potties under the table but there are so many more restaurants that are not child friendly in this country and if I had that option I'd use my imagination and visit one!

A few weeks ago in Costa Coffee, a mother decided to change her baby's dirty nappy on the sofa. He was about 10-12 months old and the smell was terrible. Peopel were getting up and moving away from her. She didn't even have any wipes with her and so she used costa napkins and asked for a cup of warm water to clean his arse with, using the napkins. I don't need to see and smell that when I'm eating my lunch and particularly not when there is a Mothercare next to the coffee shop which undoubtedly has a mother and baby changing room. The mother ate her lunch and drank her coffee when she was finished changing him without washing her hands. Absolutely disgusting.

God that makes me heave just reading it!! How utterly, utterly foul. Dirty bitch!

I'm just waiting for the hoardes of militant mothers to come on and defend it though!!

Oh somebody mentioned that the kid-on-potty might have SN. I do think that if your kid has a type of SN that means s/he can only excrete if sat on a potty under the table that you should not take this kid to restaurants where other people are going to be eating. Same as if your DC have an unstoppable tendency to throw food or poke other people. Tolerance and diversity is all very well but being harassed by someone is not something you should just have to put up with because, well, the person has SN.

[stalks SGB]

A1980, your post just turned my stomach - i've been in a restaurant and seen the same, although not to the point where the parent used the restaurant napkins to clean up the shit!

agree with the poster who said this is exactly the sort of reason why people gimace when seated next to a child on a plane or at a movie - they have no idea what the parent is going to do should the child behave (have respect for the others around them in a public place and teach their child manners vs. scream like a fishwife if their idea of "parenting" isn't to the taste of the diners or management).

"should the child behave" = should the child MISBEHAVE

I worked in a restaurant (a local family type place) and customers would regularly change their babies nappies right there on the table.

Come to think of it, most of my friends with babies think nothing of changing them on my kitchen table (or theirs..)

I always did it in a bathroom:Running water, wipeable surfaces, less danger of dysentery etc, so I find this really disgusting.

I think actually what it comes down to in all cases is LAZINESS.
Oh I can't be bothered walking with my child a few feet to do this in private.

I think also there is an element of the perpetrators genuinely thinking that whatever issues forth from their offspring is entirely innoffensive.

Well, it isn't. How would they like it if you took a shit under their table?

Scuttlebutter I totally agree with your post
Goldenbear Scuttle has every right to show an interest in the discussions on here whether or not she has children

I've brought up 3 and am a teacher in a tough secondary, and am interested in all aspects of parenting and discussion about it, both from the pov that fora such as this did not exist when I was bringing mine up, I care about issues in society regarding parenting due to my job, and maybe one day my children will be parents themselves.

OP - YANBU - I've reached the point where I only go out in this country if I can be sure there will be no screaming brats and feeble parents. What you saw was disgusting and would never happen in any country I've visited including, or particularly, the Far East, India & Africa, where issues such as the abovementioned dysentry are a real threat. Clearly as a society we have become so complacent about our rights that we've lost sight of the reasons for basic hygiene practices. No wonder there are so many superbugs resistant to the full array of antibiotics. If I'd witnessed this in a restaurant I would have finished my meal and left, paying only for what I'd consumed.

I feel sorry for the offspring of parents who think this is acceptable behaviour - what are they learning? I love kids and believe that nurture has more influence than nature, however we have become very misguided in our interpretation of how we nurture our children if the behaviour I witness when unfortunate enough to see parents & DCs like this is anything to go by. The level of blatant in-your-face bad behaviour from the MINORITY of parents brings them all into disrepute with empty-nesters like me & the childless eg last week when I witnessed a large toddler standing in a supermarket trolley being given a packet of sandwiches from the shelves, the packaging then thrown away & no doubt not paid for. I don't want to be an old bag who mutters about these people, I just feel sorry for the children involved and for all others with DCs who feel tarred with the same brush.

As for Scuttlebutter's feelings of being sidelined in favour of people with children, as a teacher forced to take my holidays in school holiday time, I am becoming more and more p*d off with horrible plane and boat experiences due to feeble or non-parenting. I feel your pain :(

As a parent and a parent of a child with SN, I am often appalled by the arrogance and sense of entitlement of parents who let their children behave appallingly in cafes & restuarants. It is REVOLTING to let your child piss under the table, and completely antisocial to let them scream and tantrum. If your child kicks off you go outside, and if that doesn't work, you go home. It is totally unreasonable to expect everyone else in the room to be stressed and miserable becauese of your child. The other day my six year old daughter said loudly 'that girl's noise is really getting on my NERVES' as parents sat drinking coffee at their four year old screamed her head off at the table behind us. THe look of gratitude from the young couple at the next table was priceless!

Not so long ago, at a children's party, I was sitting with a friend drinking coffee and having a slice of birthday cake when a woman decided that the sitting room was the perfect place to change her large child's shitty nappy. THe stench was appalling. I was EATING! Then another kid needed a poo so a mother used a bowl from the kitchen!! These were quite educated, middle-class mothers, but had lost all sense that their children were not gods before whose bowels we should bow down.

Can you imagine the uproar if an elderly person emptied his/her urinary catheter in a restaurant?

But then I am a snobby and conditioned person.

Okay okay, I've changed my mind about the piss thing. I don't think I actually imagined what it was really like to be sat accross from someone as they got out their potty.

But I do think people should be a lot more tolerant towards parents, and let's be honest it's not parents is it. It's mothers.

Restaurants, shops, it's not society, it's capitalism. In other words a big money making machine posing as society. Children and parents have to somehow fit themselves into it like a spare peg in a round hole.

I'm sure some parents take the piss, but on the other hand society is completely intolerant of mothers with young children.

Restaurants should have kids areas, toilets within easy location, small children's toilets or even toys and drawing.

I was frowned upon the other week for asking where the toilet was in an public library. I had two tiny children with me and they gave me the third degree about whether it was for the children or not before they reluctantly got out their key to let me in. WTF is that all about? Why would you not allow a mother with small children to use the toilet??? It's all part of the general contempt towards those who participate in child-rearing that has got to me recently.

SO yes, I've changed my mind about the potty,but I do think that we, as mothers, should be more tolerant of tantrumming children. Perhaps smile reassuringly at the mother in a "we've all been there" type of way instead of tutting.