Libyan "stolen" children

[Arthur62]

There seems to be a lot of hype concerning children who are living with their fathers' in Libya. Mothers' are claiming that these children are stolen but surely these children are just simply living with one of their parents. It happens all the time in England when the mother steals the children from the father.

Ok, I see that that may be the case. Unfortunately, there have also been many cases where the father has taken his children to his home country in order to 'punish' the mother. This is borne out by the fact that the children have then been brought up by their paternal grandmother, having little contact with their father.

The scenario I describe is extreme, but happens- the scenario you describe is extreme but happens. Why should the law be changed to fit your scenario but not mine?

I'll ask again..... Ok, if you were living in Libya and were married to a Libyan, going through a divorce, would you flee the country they were being brought up in to keep the children?

So these men are illegally removing these children, without even bothering to see what would happen in the courts.

Rather dismissive, isn't it. I just don't think that these are very nice men that we are talking about here. What kind of person vanishes a child from its parent? Leaves them not knowing where it is? What kind of person removes a baby from its primary caregiver / removes a child from friends, school, extended family, everything they know? With no warning and no opportunity to say goodbye? A not very nice person, that's who.

My child is my child but does not belong to me. I loan my child and my job during the short time they are mine is to raise them to be responsible adults and to do my best to give them the best start in life. (which for any daughter of mine is not growing up in Libya) My child will always be my child but as a intelligent being will never belong to me and live their life for me they are a person in their own right.

The law in Libya says that on divorce, the mother keeps the children. If not her, next dibs is her mother. So presumably there would be no need to flee.

I wouldn't live in Libya in the first place for the reasons outlined by scallops.

May be some of these fathers actually believe that they are the better parent and have taken the appropriate action instead of relying on the bias court system we have here and who could blame them? Not me. Or you if the roles were reversed....

The scenario I describe is extreme, but happens- the scenario you describe is extreme but happens. Why should the law be changed to fit your scenario but not mine?

Please answer, arthur.

This is just bollocks isn't it.

One situation = legal divorce and custody proceedings and right to see children for parent who does not have custody which can be enforced by a court. It is not the case that women automatically gain custody - the reason that is usually the case is because they are usually the primary carer

Other situation = illegal removal with no warning, children taken from everything they know, mother not knowing where they are

To say the first case is a scandal and the second is a natural and fair response is ludicrous.

Decent people do not whisk children away from tehir homes. Simple as that really.

My child is my child but does not belong to me.

I would beg to differ. Your child does belong to you and the father. They are yours.

one major point that's being missed here...... when kids are snatched by their fathers, how much time those fathers actually spend caring for their kids? and how often they are foisted off on the female relatives?

I will get flamed now but actually sometimes children are better off with the father, and if my DP had the chance he (and i) would go anywhere to protect his little girl.

The family court system in this contry is a complete joke, and UNFIT mothers are considered a better choice as primary carer than a loving stable father, because the child is living with them normally.

im a woman and im totally ashamed at how women feel they have everyright to any child.

The definition of ownership is to own a possesion outright, the definition of slavery is to own a person and make choices for them removing their rights. Which one do you see your children as?

The scenario I describe is extreme, but happens- the scenario you describe is extreme but happens. Why should the law be changed to fit your scenario but not mine?

Please answer, arthur.

The law should be changed so that both Parents have an equal footing in Court to decide who the children should reside with. This should not be automatically determined by gender or who is at work etc. The premise for residence should start at 50 50 where applicable and within distance etc. However, courts arbitrarily give residence to mothers which will give merit to some foreign fathers to take their own actions to preserve what is theirs. I would argue that I would possibly do the same in their position.

The definition of ownership is to own a possesion outright, the definition of slavery is to own a person and make choices for them removing their rights. Which one do you see your children as?

Yawn.

Right, I'll try one last time:

Ok, I see that that may be the case. Unfortunately, there have also been many cases where the father has taken his children to his home country in order to 'punish' the mother. This is borne out by the fact that the children have then been brought up by their paternal grandmother, having little contact with their father.

The scenario I describe is extreme, but happens- the scenario you describe is extreme but happens. Why should the law be changed to fit your scenario but not mine?

Arthur, I am actually interested in debating this issue with you; unfortunately I cannot do so if you do not answer my question as I answered yours.

If you would like to ignore my question, let me know and I'll bow out disappointedly.

x-post arthur

I just answered you tethersend. Give me a chance as I have several to answer at once and I haven't had my dinner yet. lol

Yawn.

Nothing better to say arthur no inflamatory message to shoot back? I am dissapointed

"The law should be changed so that both Parents have an equal footing in Court to decide who the children should reside with."

Can you give details as to which part of the law you would like to see changed?

as I say arthur, was an x-post; I posted as you were

If you're not going to decide who has main custody based on who is primary caregiver, arthur, what rules would you apply instead? Who has more money? What?

The court does not make its decision on what is best for the mother or the father.

It decides (or is supposed to) what is in the best interests of the child(ren).

FlameGrilledMama Sat 06-Nov-10 13:03:48
Yawn.

Nothing better to say arthur no inflamatory message to shoot back? I am dissapointed

Well, if you are going to compare parenthood with slavery etc, there is little I can say to you. Your children are your responsibility and you have to forge the way that they should be brought up. If you want to compare that to having a slave well...... I have no answer for you.

i think that taking your child away from either parent - when there is no abuse or other circumstances taht would make no more contact appropriate- to live in another country, is actually in itself abuse

it is using the child as a weapon

as a punishment

i doubt these men tell their children how wonderful their mothers are

I have nothing but contempt for women who do any of the thigns you listed earlier, in terms of stopping /stalling contact

IME of the couples I know who have divorced, the exact opposite has been true and the fathers have buggered off, to be seen rarely and often providing little financial support

any mother or father who takes their child awy from their other parent with the intention to permanently deprive their child of contact with that parent, is an abuser

and it is cruel and a deliberate method of hurting the other parent

i can think of few things worse

No I dont view my children as belonging to me they are a joy for me to raise thank you very much. But to own a person outright is called and defined as slavery I dont own my children