Neighbour problems

[VivienScott]

My new neighbour is having an extension built. As part of this the builders need to put scaffolding up on the pathway down the side of my house. The pathway is wholy my land and we use it a great deal, it where the milkman delivers milk, the postman delivers parcels through the side door in the cat flap if we're not there, the bins are, it's also the door to the house we use if we've been out and are muddy, and most importantly, it's the door to the garden the kids use, the other option is mud through the living room and on the carpets.

The neighbour came round last week and asked if it was OK to put up scaffolding and said the the estimated time would be at least three months, throughout which the builders would need access to the scaffolding and therefore my land. I wasn't exactly happy about this but in the spirit of neighbourliness I said yes but it was not to obstruct the passageway, the side door or the cat flap.

So today the scaffolders have turned up, started erecting the scaffolding without even the common courtesy of a knock at the door to let me know and then proceeded to put a post up right in front of the door blocking it and the cat flap and also the first level walkway across the door!!! I went out and told them to stop and take it down because I'd not agreed to it, which eventually they did. I said unless they could come up with a way of putting it up without causing an obstruction it had to go, they said they can't for whatever reason (I think they were being a bit jobsworth) and left.

Anyway the neighbour has just left my doorstep, she's at work during the day so wasn't there when the scaffolders were, asked me if there was anyway round it, I said no not for that length of time, it would be like no front door for 3 months we use the side door so much. She then said could she speak to my husband as perhaps me being a stay at home mum had left me with a distorted view of the real world where people were actually willing to look beyond their own needs and those of their pets and children because unless I give permission they can't build the extension as they need the scaffolding!!!! She then threatened legal action against me, said she was entitled to temporary access to the land, which I know she isn't. Needless to say I told her to hop it in slightly more colourful language.

Apart from it ending in a slanging match I'm beginning to wonder should I just put up with the massive hassle of it for 3+ months in order to just preserve neighbourly relations or, given her rudeness, and the fact it is a massive pain in the neck and I'm under no legal obligation to give permission, despite what she tried to tell me, just stick to my guns. OH thinks we should tell her to f off, but he would!

She's only been there a little while and I don't really know her at all, but she's always seemed a bit highly strung. Rational side is saying just give in for a quiet life, stubborn side of me thinks if she can't be polite she deserves nothing and giving into her will just encourage her ridiculous behaviour.

Which side of me is BU???

OP, just say or write to the woman, 'DH and I have discussed this again, and in light of several issues arising like insurance, fire escape, health and safety, we have to retract our original permission for the scaffolding'

That's all that it should take, really!

I'm with your OH, tell her to shove it where the sun don't shine. Who needs to get on with the likes of her, sooner she gets the message the better if you ask me.

Sorry Eldritch - I realise youre not actually telling her to do anything - I just cant believe the OP should have to go to so much trouble - the woman sounds like a sociopath and no amount of conditions or legal advice or whatever will make her into a reasonable neighbour. But youre right if the OP is determined to accomodate her then it is right she takes steps to cover herself. I just feel so strongly that she shouldnt play ball full stop - for 'start as you mean to go on' reasons with this type of person.

Next time she comes round grin insanely, then say "yes" as in a "do I know you " type of way. When she starts to talk about the building works, stop her abruptly with a "What on earth are you talking about, what building work? you have got the wrong person, I don't know anything about your house, why should I?" then follow this immediately with "Would you like to meet my budgie, he is called Harold and is appearing on local tv, he is going to be famous you know, do come in and listen to him sing....."

Have you got a party wall agreement? The party wall act states that if work is being done within a certain distance of your foundation, you are entitled to a party wall agreement I think if they are digging foundations it is within 3m but don't quote me on that! legally, I think your neighbour should have given you 2 months notice and at the very least got a scehdule of condition drawn up, but like I say it may need a party wall agreement. if she hasn't done this, she can't commence works, even if she doesn't need planning permission. HTH

And would add to catpad's letter - the lack of experience shown by the scaffolders in not being able to put up scaffolding without blocking access (or their lack of willingness to provide suitable scaffolding maybe) and even the fact that you feel threatened (may be a bit stronf for a letter) or stressed by the way your neighbour has treated you about this. Thereby showing it is not all about you but the way they are behaving to you too...

Vivien - can you update us on what is happening?

I have been very interested to read this thread - I didn't realise there was so much legality involved (party wall agreements etc) but see that this is absolutely necessary.

really think you should take some time to research this and make sure you have everything in place before agreeing to ANYTHING with this woman - who from what I have read sounds like she will be a nightmare no matter what you do!

The scaffolding must be netted. We lived next door to a house-build once - all sorts of things landed in the garden. Including, once, part of the scaffolding itself which squashed ds's trike - lucky he wasn't on it, eh? Health and Safety has all sorts of requirements for scaffolding and she must comply.

MUMINTHEMIDDLE

We now have outside yours OP waving 'JUST SAY NO' placards:

< drum roll>

Emptyshells cat, my dog 'Pudsey', Harold the budgie, your DH ( I never thought I would condone this but you should accept he's right on just this one occasion ! ) - and all us likeminded mumsnetters. Oh and my DH who has worked in building trade for over 30 years - he said as a builder or a neighbour he wouldnt touch her with a barge pole ( but he put it in building site terms so cant quote - for fear of offending any delicate dispositions ).

refuse her scaffolding request, im pretty sure she wouldnt offer you the same. 3 months is too long, and im sure itl end up being longer too

Vivien
Have just given my neighbour scaffold access so very topical for me. Scaffolders should be able to set up scaffold to give you the access you need and no obstructions - scaffolding is infinitely flexible. If you do manage to sort something out with your neighbour don't forget to get something in writing from her/scaffolding company to cover you for any damage/loss which may occur as a result either from the scaffolding or building works. Stick to your guns - you will be doing them an immense favour - you can be reasonable but firm about what you want. They need you and should respect the fact that you are giving them access to the land outside your home for a considerable length of time and they will be causing you inconvenience.

That's why OP needs a party wall agreement

Yes agree Derskindame and my aforementioned DH with 300 years experience (his words - not mine ) in the building trade says so aswell. If their nearest excavation to you property is less than 3m away from your boundary line then they do need to write to you under the Party Wall Act and inform you their plans - the letter has to conform to the Act aswell. Then they have to give you a month to reply and if they start work without such a notice to you or before the month has passed in which you can reply then you can have the work stopped immediately.

But even if she conforms with above notification of intention you still do not have to agree to anything on your land - and no-one can overrule you on that one. TBH my evil voices would make me want to wait the full 27 days 23hrs and 59mins and then put a note through her door saying NO

you need the advice of a real lawyer.

my impression is

• you can make them jump through some hoops first, if you wish, but in the end they will be able to force you to accept scaffolding

• but the scaffolding cannot obstruct your back door and access for three month.

Your Rights
In order to grant an access order the court must be convinced that the reasons you need to gain access to a neighbour?s land, if they have flatly refused you permission, are valid as contained within the Act. Valid reasons for granting an access order would include:

The maintenance, renovation or repair of a property (or parts of it) in order to preserve it
The clearing or repair of any sewers, drains, cables or pipes
The removal or filling in of a ditch
The felling of a tree, plant or hedge (or parts of it) which have died, become diseased or which have become insecurely rooted and unstable which is likely to pose a danger

Here is an excerpt from the 'access to neighbouring land act' - in fact they can not ever make you let them on their land except for maintenance of an existing building

The basic interpretation of the law here is that the work must relate to the ?preservation? of an existing structure as opposed to granting permission to gain access to a neighbour?s land in order to make it easier to construct a new development, e.g. a new conservatory or extension you might be thinking of having built.

Therefore, even if you have been granted planning permission for a ?new build?, this does NOT mean that you can automatically gain access to a neighbour?s land if parts of the work need to be carried out from their side of the boundary line. That is not covered by the Act and any such work in this instance would have to be agreed to by both you and your neighbours themselves

Sorry - no good at technical stuff - that is an excerpt from the 'Access to neighbouring land act'

Basically you can tell her to go swivel and as I said before no-one can overrule you if you say NO.

Sorry again - well my hearts in the right place

All my last but one post is an excerpt from the act except for the paragraph starting Here is an excerpt.......

We built our extension right up to the boundary with no scaffolding as neighbour refused access. It cost us more and took extra time, but they built from the inside up and did a great job, so no harm done.

Unfortunately, our neighbour had already fallen out with us by then - our builders damaged her garden - and despite numerous attempts to make reparations and pay for the damage she has refused to accept this and has instead chosen a series of 'revenge' strategies and ways of upsetting us (small things, but very annoying). This has annoyed many other neighbours too, and she has become isolated from everyone now.

Please do not underestimate firstly how petty and ridiculous neighbour disputes can become, but also how little (some) builders care about damage/upset their work causes. They just want to get the job done.

Ours knew they'd upset our neighbour and things were becoming difficult, but carried on adding insult to injury by creating further damage. All the damage would be easy to repair/replace (it was plants and grass that was damaged) so they obviously thought, "no big deal" but our neighbour didn't see it like this and never will. We felt very bad at first, but given that she won't let us replace the damaged areas or even accept any financial compensation, we now feel angry and frustrated (which is ironic, given that we were the guilty party).

OP - i think you have handled things very well. I would go ahead with your plan, not for her benefit, but for your own, so that you know you are being a decent person. Do not have anything to do with her on a personal basis from now on though. She is clearly a bit of a loon, and very rude too.

OP, YA absolutely NBU. When we had our loft converted (we live in a terraced house) we had to have a party wall agreement drawn up, which included paying for our then-neighbour to appoint a surveyor of her choice to ensure that nothing would be infringing on her property/rights. Although, ahem, she turned out to be a complete nightmare and drove us round the bend, we bent over backwards to be considerate and fair to her. At no time were there any slanging matches and I'm that your neighbour could be so utterly out of order in speaking to you as she did.

As others have so eloquently said, I really do wonder whether you should make any concessions towards her, given her behaviour and general attitude. At the very least she should have been reassuring you, well in advance, that she would do everything possible to avoid disruption to you, and would meet any reasonable expenses that her build causes to you. Not to mention the flowers/chocs/wine that should be heading in your direction as a matter of course. Good neighbourliness cuts both ways.

Iam a bit worried OP may have vanished into the foundations

YANBU

Me too MINI - I think it was when I tried to get all technical and attach things and cut and paste and link and all that.

Think I might have vapourised her.

Hmmm...we had the same thing with a neighbour. He (a developer) had permission to extend and sent us a letter saying "as I have planning permission, I will be erecting scaffolding in your garden tomorrow" for the next 3 months

To cut a long story short (where it got nasty as he sent scaffolders over our garden wall after dark to erect scaffolding without our permission, terrifying our small children to see men scaling over into our garden in the dark, which all ended in calling the police - nothing they could do as it was trespass not burglary - and then a rival firm of scaffolders to dismantle it at 5am the next morning), we looked into all of it and he had NO rights to do this (only for renovation). So you can impose any reasonable conditions/ payment you like in return for your agreement, including payment.

Having said that, it is always good to get on with neighbours and I would try to be helpful as neighbour disputes are dreadfully stressful BUT YANBU to ask first for payment for YOU to get proper planning/ legal advice to draw up an agreement including provision for insurance (there is a security risk with scaffolding against your house that may invalidate your own house insurance), non obstruction and time limit.

notsocrates ! In fact the police should have been able to arrest for breach of the peace.

I had to call the police to remove a workman from our property, who was doing work on our neighbour's house. The police were more than happy to do so.

Neighbour, who has refused to speak to us for the last 5 years got his man to climb over our locked electric gates , and use our driveway to set up his ladder to do work to the house. When I arrived back, and asked him what he was doing on my property - he gave me a load of abuse. Me: You don't have permission to be on my property - please leave. He refused to do so - after 4 times of requests & refusals, I phoned the police. Strangely enough, chocs flowers and apologies were not forthcoming from the neighbour, just more abuse, and assertions from him that he was a good neighbour, unlike us. Basically he's a dick.

Sorry, rant over.

God this makes me want to to live in a field in the middle of nowhere - we are still suffering from the after effects of next door's extension 18 months on.