I now know I'm right about little girls and the hijab.....

[PosieComeHereMyPreciousParker]

talking to a beautiful Somali lady today(they all have hollywood smiles don't they, bloody genetic miracles!!) and she confirmed that whilst her 5 & 7 year old dds don't cover their heads she gets harassed and pressured by men at the mosque that her dds should cover. She said that whilst she doesn't because she loves her dds hair, other women do cover their very young dds. She said the men also say that unless they do it from very young they will not do it when they are the right age!

So it's not only about copying Mummy, just like the rise of the burka it's a renewed stick to beat women with.

Half of you don't speak to anyone apart from the white, English middle class. I'm from London, I mix with normal, working class, sensible people of all religions, races, etnicities. That must be the difference, and why you just cannot comprehend what is going on. I'm done with it. It's BEYOND ridiculous, having to explain oveeeeerrrrr and oveeerrrrr again

You are right SecondComing. I am bonkers. I've been driven mad by hearing DRIVEL from IGNORANT FRIGHTENED people, who are the reason why there is so much tension in this country.

That's it, all come on and deny it. But I know your type, so do the people who have experienced racism directly. Hiding thread now, can't take any more nonsense

My point got lost alright. It got lost among heaps of absolute cack. My patience has officially run out. I've never experienced anything like this in my life, how people can be sooooooooooooooooooooooo wrong and not know it. I've been driven literally mad!!!

So you think that 'English' family will have a genealogical tree populated by only English, going back hundreds of years? Really? No Irish, Scottish, French etc? How many generations are needed for someone to be called 'English'? What percentage of genes can be from other ethinicities?

I bet there's plenty of people that you know and consider English who had ancestors that were from different countries.

And I haven't got any sense of entitlement. In fact, I don't even live in the UK- I might move there in the near future, as DP is English (although, wait, I think his family originated in France 1000 years ago and there's some Irish blood there as well, so perhaps he's not ).

What I do know is that if someone in my country had a greatgrandparent who was foreign-born I would not view him as not Polish. I very much doubt she/he would, either.

Perhaps you see a lot of Poles who have recently emigrated to the UK, looking for work. Their English in most cases is not perfect, they don't feel very confident in their new surroundings, they tend to keep together. But are you really saying that their greatgrandchildren shouldn't consider themselves English (or Welsh or Scottish), especially given the fact that after intermarrying with English there won't be that much Polish blood left, anyway? That obviously goes for other ethinicities as well.

And finally, ethnicity doesn't have much to do with love for the country you were born in, espousal of that country's ideals, culture etc etc.

ethnicities, obv

I mean, sorry, but I live in France and I can't imagine anyone saying Thierry Henry is not French, because his parents were from Guadeloupe and Martinique.FFS.

I've already said people can consider themselves what they want. Grandchildren, great great great great great great grandchildren, whatever. I am sick of the insistence that people who are born here MUST under the rules of Mumsnet consider themselves English when the majority of people I know DON'T, and that is their right, and nobody elses buisness, and it demeans their identity to be told by English people what they are.

I mean, sorry, but I live in France and I can't imagine anyone saying Thierry Henry is not French, because his parents were from Guadeloupe and Martinique.FFS.

I am right. I don't just pull opinions out of the sky to waste my life arguing on, they are based on real life knowledge, and conversations with people, real people. To be told otherwise is infuriating.

sorry, double post

Oh, sure, I agree with you that if someone doesn't consider himself English it's rude to state that he is.

But you said that the great grandchildren of Poles(or whatever other nationality) who came recently to England won't be English, where I bet you they will consider themselves English.

I didn't mention Poles. I am mostly talking about second generation people like myself.

TSC very observant. I'm past debating, past arguing even. Now I'm just having a massive tantrum

You're right.

It was homeboys. Sorry.

You agreed with his/her post, though.

I think what I said is relevant to other ethnicities as well, not just the Poles.

I think the best you can say is that there is room for different views.

Nationality/ ethnicity could be 2 different things. Most of us don't know what our makeup is more than (say) 4 generations back.

Referencing Private Eye's "1000 years of angelfolc blood coursing through my veins": given the peoples who have invaded the country we now call England during that time, "English" people may well have Angle/ Saxon (both from the place now called Germany), Norman and possibly Danish ancestry.

Italy as a state didn't even exist till the 19th century.

Wouldn't let it bother me. I am ethnically one thing, nationally another, culturally yet another ... I like the variety, myself. I think it's up to the person to say what they feel they are, but it might not make a lot of difference when it comes to considering nationality, whose side you'd be on in football/ a war etc.

I don't like seeing wee girls being restricted compared to wee boys. That includes silly shoes.

I did agree, based on my own experiences, my friends. I even gave examples of my colleagues, FIL, I have many more. People who are born here are not automatically english. I said I consider myself Italian and everyone told me, implicitly, that I wasn't. I know, being a normal person, that you just cannot do that

Italian British born I said actually, and people still swept like vultures to carrion. I just don't understand why

The Duke of Wellington was born in Ireland. When someone suggested he was Irish, apparently he retorted that "being born in a stable does not make one a horse."

But what did he make his daughters wear?

spikey

you're actually lying now. Go back and pick any one of my posts that said you must be english. Most other people didn't call you english as well. They were only arguing with your point of view that to be english you have to have english blood or have english blood generations going back to the dawns of time. You are deliberately misrepresenting what people are saying.

spikey

I've read the thread now- should have done before I posted, eh?

So if you're saying that for people who have foreign ancestors but who feel English are English and the ones who don't are not- I offer you my apology.

Of course I could argue that as you have English nationality, you are English. In that sense you are, sorry, but I understand that you feel Italian (which makes you Italian as far as I'm concerned).

I took some posts out of context, I am sorry.

OP. you say ".I am anti organised religion in it's entirety so it's no skin off my nose."

So you wouldn't send your children to a religious school then?