to not understand the fuss over halal meat?

[StuckInTheMiddleWithYou]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1317312/Waitrose-forced-ditch-halal-lamb-Duchy-range.html

Why on earth are people objecting so much? Do they really think that the standard method of killing an animal is any less cruel?

Quite mad.

Well the thing is, as a muslim I didnt know that the meat in waitrose was halal, it wasnt labelled as such and I wouldnt have bought it, I doubt I or any muslims I know will buy it now as it isnt guaranteed to be halal unless it is labelled as such and has a certificate from the abbatoir. (And i would love to be able to get hold of organic halal meat)

So it isnt a case of it being halal to please the muslims, its because its easier/cheaper for the supermarkets

I think the anti-Halal sentiments probably stems from ignorance as to what the Halal procedure involves. I'm willing to bet that a significant number of people don't understand (or don't want to know) what the non-Halal method of slaughter is either, judging by the bizarre outcry over Gordon Ramsay's late pigs. As for Kosher... anyone want to hazard a guess?

Some information and explanation would probably put people's minds at rest.

The "insidious creeping of Islam".
What a lovely phrase

And what exactly is our country's ethos? Does everybody in the UK have the same opinions about everything?

BTW Alouiseg... all NZ lamb is Halal. Not because they are volunteering to be the antipodean outpost of the islamic caliphate, or because they are subsuming their national traditions but simply because they have a brisk trade with the Middle East and it makes commercial sense.

Aloise,

I thought that tolerence was part of our ethos?

And please do not attempt to claim that shariah law is evident in this country. You know that assertion is just daft.

Banking services and meat products are sold in a free market, if there is a market for such things who are you to say that they should be banned?

A lot of people do care - I'm among them. Rightly or wrongly the perception is that a pre-stunned kill is more humane/less painful. Many people who eat meat have a slightly uneasy conscience about doing so and do it in the belief that it is killed in the most humane way possible. And yes I always buy free range/outdoor reared etc wherever I can because I also care about the living conditions of the animal. So I was not pleased to read about all meat being halal, the description of the process makes me feel slightly sick (and always has), and I do feel that it should not be imposed on us all (no matter what the reason).
Fair enough if it's your belief that you have to eat meat killed that way, but it's not mine, and I'd rather have the choice rather than have it snuck into my shopping trolley.

Oh and the real threat to British traditions can be found in Americanism of the universe.

i always buy halal meat, my closest butcher is halal..... don't really give a monkeys

"I do, however, believe we should keep our tradition of preparing meat. By altering it we are accepting religion influences our lives - I feel uncomfortable with that!"

• what is our tradition of slaughtering meat??? Surely slaughter practices have changed over the years??

If there was better labelling, people would vote with their feet (or rather purses), and the market would adjust.

I've found this an interesting thread - but am wondering why the theme of comparison seems to be between UK slaughterhouses when things go wrong (eg animal coming round), and perfect sharp-knifed individual halal slaughter. Would it be equally acceptable to compare a properly functioning abbatoir here with an overcrowded slum slaughterhouse where the animals are shoved through as fast as the bluntish knife-wieldeds can manage?

Before anyone thinks that's over the top, do you know where your supermarket meat was slaughtered? 'Produced in UK' can mean an imported carcass which passed through a UK cutting house.

Clear labelling, on origin in a broad sense, would help consumers buy what they actually want to.

Alouiseg, shariah banking etc being available is hardly destroying your traditions; it's probably less tradition-destroying than supermarket pork sections and liquor shops being 'available' to me as a non-Muslim living in an Islamic country. And believe me I value both of those things and don't take them as some kind of weakness in my host country, or as a sign that its nationals don't value and cherish their own traditions....

If more UK meat was killed in a halal way, there might be more chance of us getting decent chickens over here too instead of scrawny tasteless things.....

Would be hoping for all of it to be as humane as possible though, just because.

Riven - you make a powerful point about the other aspects of the lead up to slaughter and the stress caused.

I have personally witnessed slaughter by Halal in a traditional setting and also the method used in a modern UK slaughterhouse.

In my view the Halal method when performed exactly as you describe is humane although the animal is concious after the initial cut is made and therefore suffers some pain. The bolt gun stun method in a modern UK slaughterhose renders instant loss of conciousness before bleeding occurs obviously means animals suffer no pain.

However, the stress suffered by animals in a modern UK slaughter house can I believe be very significant. Usually the animals waiting to be killed cannot see the others being killed but they may hear the gun and certainly can smell the blood.

There is a very impressive lady called Temple Grandin. She is an academic who has made it her life work to reduce animal stress by redesigning US slaughter houses and stock yards. She is also a person who has high functionng autism and because of that has a keen understanding of how environment leads to her own feelings of stress. Her work needs to be incorporated in all slaughterhosues by law in my view.

I wouldn't refuse Halal meat on the basis of the slaughter method.

I would expect it to be labelled as Halal slaughtered so I could make an informed decision.

I would choose not to buy it as a market protest. I'll be having a chat with the lovely butcher tomorrow and see what his take is on it.

"QuinceMince I object to British traditions being eroded because of religious rights. "

How is the slaughter of meat affecting anything to do with our British traditions?

Does our Roast Beef, Lamb or Chicken on a Sunday taste any different, can you tell it's halal when you make a Cottage Pie, a Steak and Kidney Pie?

Can you?

If we need to eat meat, we need to kill an animal.

If killing it a certain way restricts it's saleability in our diverse society, then what sense would it make? There is a good chance that meat could end up going to waste, which is more of a tragedy, seeing as a life was lost in the first place.

We need to be more wary of WHERE our meat comes from. I would think twice before buying chicken from the Far east/Malaysia for example. But if it's British raised and slaughtered, the animal has most chance of not suffering.

Increasingly all meat will be halal to save the cost of running two supply chains. This isn't because of massive numbers of Muslims in this country but because meat production is globalised and Muslim majority countries are a big market. And the products are exactly the same.

Chill1234 - aren't halal and kosher basically the same? To the extent that Muslims are allowed to eat kosher if halal is not available. I may be wrong.

why? just because it can also be eaten by Muslims?

This is interesting..I am Muslim but am not rigid about buying Halal meat...my reasoning being that I want the animal to have an good life as well as a humane way of slaughter and I don't always feel with halal meat I can guarantee this...I mean I've seen the size of some of the halal chicken breasts and I just shudder when I think of what growth rubbish is in them, just to increase the weight of the bird..with organic meat, I at least know this isn't the case

A lot of people have this blinkered approach oh as long as its halal/kosher its fine and I disagree with this - it has to be about the animal's life as well as death..the halal way of killing was designed to minimise the suffering of the animal - no point killing halal if its spent its life in a cage being pumped with hormones and other crap

I would LOVE to have a local free range/organic halal butchers - that I can actually rely on and believe when they tell me it is such

And yes, we can eat Kosher meat and vice versa

coalition, there is certainly some interchangeability between halal and kosher though I can't remember if it is two way interchangeable or just one - so I assume the actual method must be the same