Arg! Primary school is a minefield. Another one...

[Rosieeo]

DD came home today and told me that her teacher makes them say grace before they eat. DD has no idea what it's all about; she thinks she's saying thank you to the person who gave her lunch, i.e. me!

The school has no religious affiliation although the prospectus alludes to 'collective daily worship'. I appreciate that schools are somewhat obliged to provide some kind of 'spiritual' stuff. I just expected it to be Harvest Festival or a few hymns in assembly.

Obviously I have no problem with religious education, as long as it is 'education' (some people believe this, others believe that) and not religion presented as fact.

I went to a CofE primary school and even they didn't make us say grace! AIBU to be vaguely annoyed/disturbed and to possibly have a quick word with the teacher?

Any thoughts? Sorry if this has been done to death by the way, DD is my eldest and this is unexplored territory.

x-post. i have no idea what you are talking about re egg boxes.

You have to go back to my earlier post. Making a dragon for a mummer's play upset an mother for religious reasons. To be perfectly fair the mother never said so, but the girls got very upset and said that 'they didn't think their mother would like it'. They were very uncomfortable so I just said they could do something else.
My private thought was that it was narrow minded in the extreme and it wasn't something to upset the DCs -they were not upset with the activity just with upsetting their mother.
I think it very narrow minded of a parent to ban Harry Potter, painting egg boxes or saying grace. It is all making mountains out of molehills.

Unfortunately Aitch I can't show you the work that came from an extract of Harry Potter or you would see why I used it-it was amazingly imaginative. I am not reading it as an example of great literature-in fact I am not reading more than 2 paragraphs!

I think that we ought to drop the subject-it is hijacking the thread that has nothing to do with it.

My only point is that you have no idea what your DC will believe in the future and I can't see why it is any big deal if it differs from yours! I believe in God-my DCs don't-so what? Why does it matter?

lolol. your belief in god is clearly very profound.

My beliefs are my own-profound or not-they are not ones I generally mention. I just fail to see why I give birth and expect that my DCs will follow my beliefs. I know vicars who had atheist parents and I know plenty of people with deep religious beliefs whose DCs have none. My vegan friends have a son who became a butcher!
It would be a pretty frightening world if luck of birth told you what you had to be! Luckily people have free choice and just because their parents want them to be atheists, lawyers, interested in sport, members of the conservative party they are perfectly free to become muslim,landscape gardners who loathe sport and vote labour! I don't see why they still can't have a perfectly loving relationship.
It isn't in your gift to tell your DC what to think, so I don't see why things need to be censured.
I think it much safer to come across grace etc at an early age than find religion as something new e.g. cults when older. Exposing them to school religion is not making converts or the churches would be full! I have challenged people to give me an example of someone who became a Christian through collective school worship and no one has given me an example yet!

tbh you are missing the OP's point SO SPECTACULARLY i wonder if you have read any of this thread.

I think I am losing the will to live and will go to bed! I admit that I have completely lost the plot and have no idea why we are on Harry Potter! Must be the wine .
I have just re read OP and

1. It is very unusual to have grace if it isn't a church school.

2, Not all church schools say grace.

1. It wouldn't bother me-I think it unimportant.
2. If it bothers OP then of course she should go in and have a word.

There's nothing wrong with being "grateful" for having food on your plate when millions don't. But thanking an imaginary deity for it is bizarre (even if it existed, it wouldn't necessarily be responsible or want this).

I don't know about the comparison with the nativity play - for me it's just a play with a story, and so I was quite happy to let DD take part in one.

Millions shake it off quite easily swallowedAFly!! My BIL was an altar boy and yet he is an atheist. DCs will believe what they make up their own minds to believe, when they are older. It is just as bad IMO for a parent to say 'imaginary deity' instead of 'I believe it is an imaginary deity' as it is for the teacher to talk about God rather than putting 'Christian's believe first.
I would say that DCs of Christians are indoctrinated when they are young, in the same way as DCs of atheists are, but it is all a pointless waste of time-in the end the DC will make up their own mind. I bet there are very few people on here who believe hook, line and sinker what their own parents believe and it will be the same with your own DCs. You can tell your DC whatever you like but they won't necessarily follow you. My mother and I have a very close relationship, but we have very different views-it has never occured to me that we should think alike.

In the cold light of day, I was not missing the point SPECTACULARLY-I was explaining why I think that parents are misguided if they try and censure what their child hears.

If it really bothers OP,and she isn't swayed by any of my arguments (I doubt whether she will be) then of course she should go into school and have a quiet word.

As regards Harry Potter, every school that I go into (church or not) has him on the book shelves and so I don't think that I am being insensitive to read an extract from a book that is already in the classroom and where all the children are familiar with the character. If there was a parental problem it would have already been raised with the Head and had it been decided that it wasn't suitable reading material the books would have been removed.

I would imagine that it is perfectly easy to come to an agreement over grace, (and Harry Potter) but parents ought to read the 1998 Education Act, before their DC starts school, and they would see that changing the school's policy on collective worship needs more than a quiet word.

I shall say now-in case I get tempted to reply further-I am not saying any more! Just have a word with the teacher.

In response to the OP - if grace doesn't fall under 'collective daily worship', I don't know what does.

Seriously, knowing that, I think you're unreasonable to be miffed at this. If a secular education is what you want (and I don't blame you one bit), then I wouldn't have entered them into a school which includes 'collective daily worship'. Daily worship. Not even occasional worship.

Perhaps you should explain the purpose of saying grace to your child and see if she wants to continue to do it? To be honest I can't see the problem in putting the fear of God into children, before they attempt to grow up and break away. Make the most of it!

I will have to answer one more time! Saying grace doesn't come under daily collective worship-the assembly does.
Every school, by law, has to have daily collective worship (in England). Read the Education Acts. The Head cannot opt out, except through the right channels and then with good reasons like 80% muslim pupils.
Every parent should be handed a copy of 1998 Education Act when their DC starts school IMO and then you wouldn't get these misunderstandings. There are no secular state schools in England.

It's been a busy weekend and I seem to have missed quite a lot! Some really interesting points made.

Piscesmoon, I am going to speak to the teacher but it won't be a rant, just an enquiry! I'm not going to alienate DD because of what I think, but I do want to present my concerns. I continue to think that it's a shame that I have to do this and that non-faith schools should have no obligation to provide daily worship.

5DollarShake, there aren't any. Every school in this country is obliged to include daily worship.

MuddlePuddle86, I have explained it to her, but she doesn't understand. I don't want to put the fear of god into her. I don't believe in god and if I did, why would I want her to be afraid?

I don't think that non faith schools should have daily worship either, Rosieeo, but as the law stands they do. I am very surprised they do grace. I'm sure that you can clear it up with a friendly word. I will have to hide the thread -or sit on my hands!

MuddlePuddle86, Put the fear of god into children and make the most of it???!!! I can't believe I read that statement in 2010. I have a lot of friends with faith and they would never advocate such a distasteful thing.

I know what you mean Piscesmoon, I keep telling myself I'm going to stay away and yet I keep coming back!

It's just an expression. I was raised a Christian, and the "fear of God" is a biblical term, basically to behave yourself.
I'd probably tell her about God (as a believer) but if you take her to weddings/christenings or if she's seen them compare it;

"When people get married they get a blessing from God, it's similar to when we have food. Some people give thanks to God because they believe he provided it".
If she asks who God is, start from the basics, don't go into the Trinity/Deity etc...start small, Adam & Eve, Noah, Moses etc like you said, educate her, don't preach. Once she knows the basics of God, perhaps she'll want to be thankful or perhaps she;ll think "I don't believe that" in which case she's making an educated decision. Just be cautious that you don't tell her with too much emphasis on your own beliefs!

And before all the atheists jump down my throat, it says to FEAR GOD, including children. The bible lays down a type of lifestyle for people who choose to follow it. Most Christians follow through their love of God, but I can guarantee others follow through fear. So don't jump down my throat, especially when you're all keen to make sure your d/sds play Mary/Joseph in the Nativity

Religion controls and subjugates through fear and self-abnegation. It's essentially politics with a bit of self-loathing thrown in. I don't see why this should be a great surprise to anyone.

Again Muddle, from my perspective those are just stories. She knows some of them (nativity, Noah and the ark etc) as stories. Why should I explain the 'basics of god' outside of what I've already told her?

So far I'd like to think I've been quite objective when attempting to explain religion, but why shouldn't I emphasise my own beliefs? Religious people do.

Apologies - my misunderstanding! Eek, that annoys the bejeezus out of me. I didn't quite realise that all state schools have a religious affiliation to a greater or lesser extent.

In my defence my DC are too young for me to be looking into schooling yet, I'm not from here and in any case am about to emigrate back to my home country (well, I am moving; my Brit-born family is emigrating ), so schooling here isn't an issue.

For those that say that they don't see how anyone can object to the simple grace that the OP's daughter is being requiered to say "because it could be the "lord" of any religion": I really can't see the Muslim parents at my ds' school (over 60% ethinic minorties, the majoirty of which are Pakistani Muslims) accepting that "it doesn't really matter whose Lord it is" Fortunately our sschool works hard to respect all the religions (and atheists ) represented in its cohort the pupils.

It does seem to be that the easy solution would be to just to offer up thanks in general for food - or to do what Crazycanuck has sorted out with her school, where the teacher reminds the kids that they don't have to say the grace - but do need to be quiet and respectful.

BTW: Britain doesn't have an Eastablished Church - The Church of England is the established chirch for England but not for Scotland. However, the requirement for the collective act of worship that is broadly Chrisitand in nature is also enshrined in all the Scottish education laws :(

5DollarShake (love your username btw), I agree, it is really frustrating. I hadn't really thought about it until DD started reception this year. Glad you're lucky enough to be going somewhere it won't be an issue!

I've just read this through and am not at all surprised to see that there are some pretty strong feelings on the thread.

Some things the OP might consider:

• As numerous people have said, by law all state schools have to be Christian in character and have collective worship. If you object to this, you have the right to withdraw your child from acts of worship, find a private secular school or home educate. Obviously the last two options are not possible for most people and I'm not seriously suggesting them, just saying that these are alternative ways of dealing with the problem.

• A lot of people seem to be under the impression that 'non-denominational' means secular. This is not the case. It means broadly Christian but not affiliated to any particular Christian denomination. There are no wholly secular state schools. If you have a problem with this, campaign to have the law changed.

• I think it's unusual to have grace in school, but obviously there are some schools that have it. I'm a Christian and I don't say grace unless I'm at a special function where they have that kind of thing.

• It's a bit strange to object so strongly to the grace but not to other aspects of the school's Christian life, which are probably just as confusing to your daughter as the grace. You say in the OP that you don't have a problem with hymns - but a hymn is a sung prayer. And presumably assemblies will include spoken prayers such as the Lord's prayer. It just seems completely bizarre to me to object to one and not the other.

I think that if this really is that important to you, you should withdraw your daughter from worship completely, which you are perfectly entitled to do (she surely won't be the only kid who doesn't go to assembly). But you don't seem willing to do that, so I wonder if it is actually that important to you. In which case you will have to put up with it and find a way to explain it to her so she is not confused. So I think YABU.