Arg! Primary school is a minefield. Another one...

[Rosieeo]

DD came home today and told me that her teacher makes them say grace before they eat. DD has no idea what it's all about; she thinks she's saying thank you to the person who gave her lunch, i.e. me!

The school has no religious affiliation although the prospectus alludes to 'collective daily worship'. I appreciate that schools are somewhat obliged to provide some kind of 'spiritual' stuff. I just expected it to be Harvest Festival or a few hymns in assembly.

Obviously I have no problem with religious education, as long as it is 'education' (some people believe this, others believe that) and not religion presented as fact.

I went to a CofE primary school and even they didn't make us say grace! AIBU to be vaguely annoyed/disturbed and to possibly have a quick word with the teacher?

Any thoughts? Sorry if this has been done to death by the way, DD is my eldest and this is unexplored territory.

The second link has a fairly comprehensive overview of religious objections etc. I don't want to turn this thread into a debate on Harry Potter, but presumably if it's wrong for teachers to include something that is against the beliefs of atheists, then it's also wrong to include something that is against the beliefs of some Christians and Muslims.

yes, but when religions exist, then you can't just leave them outside school, because certain things will be against people's religions. Someone mentioned eating pork as a good example.

The only person who seems to speak any sense on this thread is lily. she's unbiased and respectful and extremely tolerant.

she's been coming across a good bit nutso tbh with this harry potter line, barnsley.

Oh thanks Aitch! I was pretty careful to say that I don't actually have a problem myself with Harry Potter, or other magical things, my kids watch Merlin etc.

But, I know lots of people who DO have a problem with it, and in the interests of tolerance, I don't see that you can argue that one person's beliefs are to be accommodated, whilst another's aren't, because they are 'nutty'.

barnsley, mwah

tbh lily i think your point re harry potter has been firmly rebutted already. if a child was being asked to thank jk rowling for her dinner every day you might have a case.

the attitude to atheists has got nothing on the attitude to those who don't mind grace being said, who think it's not difficult to deal with

bonkers, nutso, stupid, swearing and abuse

have you atheists been called insane and stupid?

I think that Lily's posts are very sensible. I can't see the harm in a grace-at least the DC will know what it is. I don't say it, but recently I went to a weeding with a grace and I have also been to formal dinners where it is said-I think it lasts all of 10 seconds-it is polite to join in. I don't think that a wedding is a time to make objections! You don't have to say the words.

I can never see all the fuss. You may be an atheist but you have no idea what your DC will believe in the future. I hate the idea that you bring a DC into the world and it is your choice what they think!! It isn't-they are free agents.
I can't see why they can't hear all views and make up their own minds when they are ready. You can encourage but you can't tell. I encouraged by taking mine to church. The won't go and they don't believe in God. I have said before on threads 'Why is this such a big deal? Why does it matter?' We are all the same people, it hasn't made a difference to our relationship.
It works both ways, there are vicars with atheist parents!
My friend, a Chrismas, Easter type Christian has 2 DCs. Her DD won't even have her baby Christened-she is so anti and yet her DS runs his whole university social life through the Scripture union and the local church. The all get on well as a family. Why should it matter to my friend that her DCs have had the same upbringing and come to different conclusions?

I would rather my DCs heard things from all different people-even if I don't agree, than heavily censure what they hear in the first place. I would much rather they questioned everything than said 'my mummy says there is no god and my mummy is the fount of all wisdom'!

You can encourage your DC, to the best of your ability but that is all.

(It is rather like being an ardent ManU supporter, you can do all in your power to make your DC one too, by taking to matches etc but you have to accept that your DC may choose to support Chelsea or they may say they loathe football and won't even watch England play.)
Ultimately it is their choice. I can't see that censureship is desirable.

A wedding even-I have never been to a weeding!

Aitch you might think it has been rebutted, I would differ.

Atheists believe there is no God, and therefore do not want a child to take part in a short prayer, because it goes against their beliefs.

Some Christians and Muslims believe it is wrong to read books about magic (incorporating elements of the occult, which is the main reason Harry Potter is controversial), and DO NOT WANT THEIR CHILDREN DOING SO because it GOES AGAINST THEIR BELIEFS. But this is not to be taken account of because "they are nuts".

Double standards there I think. Again, I don't have a problem with HP, dd has just finished the 1st book. But, there may be other things that they are asked to do that I do not want my child to do, for religious reasons, and it would be right to speak to the teacher about this. In the HP scenario, the correct thing would probably be to not have it as a 'class book', but to use it as an optional text for the kids so that they could choose.

[yawn]

I should add, lots of 'mainstream Christian' people are concerned about HP - for example the Dean of Canterbury Cathedral refused permission to film it there saying "it was unfitting for a Christian church to be used to promote pagan imagery." It is not a few 'nutters'. It's not a universal view, but it is the view of more than just a handful of 'nutters'. And surely, if the OP is right to be concerned about her child taking part in a 10second grace, then others have a right to be concerned about their children taking part in the reading of a book they believe to be against their religion?

Just because it seems 'silly' to you Aitch, doesn't mean it is silly to everyone, but in your mind it doesn't matter because you can't see the point of worrying about it. Tolerance is about going beyond the things we personally can see the point of, and look at things from others' points of view. Nowhere on here have I said the OP should just put up with it - I have said she should have a word with the teacher and see if a more all-inclusive grace could be used.

But hey, I am 'nutso' according to you.

no, you are coming across nutso because you are comparing two very different things (as has been repeatedly explained to you) and are determined to declare them the same.

i didn't say that people who don't want their kids reading harry potter are nuts, never once. actually i think in the context of their belief system they have a point, and i therefore think that any teacher with half an ounce of sense would automatically CHOOSE ANOTHER BOOK. no big deal. just as it should be no big deal that the teacher in question should choose another way of phrasing her grace, and should have been doing so for as long as she has been working in a non-denom school. i really hope that's clear for you now.

appletrees, i'm not an atheist. in fact i am a catholic. perhaps because of that the idea of someone else not wanting their child to be inculcated in a belief system that they do not respect doesn't melt my head.

Appletrees : "have you atheists been called insane and stupid?"

'Not enough secularity around for your kid to pick up on? My arse.'

'why doesn't she put her straight instead of having seven fits and coming on here for smelling salts?'

'omg my daughter says grace what a minefield argh gah the sky is falling'

'the mum doesn't even know what the grace is and she's swooning'

'atheists could count their blessings or thank lady luck I suppose.'

'Oh you don't do blessings. Lucky stars then.'

Those are just a few examples of the incredible line of snark you have levelled against at least one atheist on this thread.

And as for the whole Harry Potter thing, what a red herring. HP is a WORK OF FICTION and is presented as such. No one ever suggests that all should worship Dumbledore and run around in robes throwing spells at people FFS. As an earlier poster said almost all childrens books contain magic of some sort. Should they all be banned from the classroom? They are fiction and not presented as fact.

oh, and personally i would be appalled at any teacher using HP as a core text because, as enjoyable as the stories undoubtedly are, the actual writing is pretty dire.

DCs do have minds of their own! I find it frightening that people think they are so easily swayed! One of the reasons I don't want mine to have beliefs because 'my mummy says so' is because I want them to question everything-if they can think something because 'mummy says so' they are just as likely to think it because 'my teacher says so'. I am only interested in 'what does DC think?' (I don't see how they can think anything without all the facts).
I think Harry Potter quite suitable as a class book and have read it in church schools, without a problem. DCs love it-if you ban them from reading it they are going to want to read it even more!

you have to forget about harry potter, it was never a good point in this debate and completely irrelevant to the god/grace thing.

i think it is unfair to expect a four year old to question her teacher's belief in god. in fact as an eight year old catholic child i once asked my teacher about the virgin birth and she refused to explain the word virgin to me 'not married' she said, to which i said, utterly confused, 'but she WAS married' etc etc and i just couldn't get a grip on what she was saying and was eventually sent out of the room for my 'cheek'.

so best just to leave god out of the non-denom schools i think. all you good christians will have sent your kids to church schools in any case, so none of this affects you surely?

Aitch "in the context of their belief system they have a point, and i therefore think that any teacher with half an ounce of sense would automatically CHOOSE ANOTHER BOOK. no big deal. just as it should be no big deal that the teacher in question should choose another way of phrasing her grace,"

But that's kind of what I was saying, that in this scenario if something like that was happening and was a problem, then the correct thing to do is speak to the teacher and explain the problem. And hours further down the thread I said the solution was probably for the teacher to rephrase the grace to be non-specific and then the children could give thanks to whoever/whatever they wanted.

I'm not saying they are the SAME THING, but the implementation is similar, because they are both things that are a problem for some people, and not for others, and perhaps aren't recognised as a problem by others. Does that make sense? Obviously it's not children bowing down at the altar of Dumbledore!

crazycanuck - I deliberately said I didn't want a debate on the rights and wrongs of Harry Potter - to me it isn't a problem. But to many Christians it is, because it goes against part of their belief system. It is specifically the elements of the occult in Harry Potter which is a lot more sinister in Harry Potter than in many children's books. And whether you think they are right or wrong, some people feel very strongly about it, because of their beliefs, just as some people feel very strongly that their children should not take part in a prayer, because of THEIR beliefs.

Again Aitch, you are deliberately ignoring parts of posts when you say it is "unfair to expect a four year old to question her teacher's belief in god".

That is why the OP should go in and speak to the teacher. Not the child, the parent. I for one have repeatedly said this throughout the thread.

no, your example only makes sense if they are being asked to worship dumbledore, a fictional figure.

that is precisely what god is to an atheist. only in that respect is the HP thing helpful in this discussion, as it points up how utterly ludicrous the 'oh it doesn't matter, it's only a few seconds' crew are being.

how would they feel if their children were being asked to thank dumbledore for their dinner? not good, i imagine.

The reason the HP thing is relevant, is because of the assertion that schools should be entirely secular. The problem is that people don't leave their religions at the door, and for some people, they can no more read Harry Potter IN class than an atheist could say 'ok, well in class I'll say the grace'. Or leave off a head scarf, or eat pork, or any of the other things that frequently make the press.

piscesmoon - I agree with you, UNLESS there is someone in the class for whom it is a problem, in which case I would expect the parent to come in and express the problem to the teacher.

Oh and Aitch, there really is no reason to sneer at people who are Christians, with the "all you good Christians".